Posted on 06/07/2007 4:07:42 AM PDT by markomalley
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
and later counselled:
…So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
It is up to those of us who consider ourselves faithful Christians (I say Christians versus Catholics, as Catholicism IS Christianity) to understand the Holy Scriptures so that we can patiently work with those who have had their eyes blinded (cf Jn 12:40) in the hopes that God will reveal His light to them. We need not argue or debate, as it is God who enlightens the heart (cf 2 Cor 4:3-6), not our meager efforts.
Ping!
Pass it on if appropriate!
“The first thing to understand, and a fact that can hardly be denied, is that the creation of the Catholic Church preceded the creation of the New Testament.”
It’s crazy statements like this, in part, that made me turn my back on the Catholic Church and why some people think the Catholic Church is a CULT.
Go ahead and flame but maybe my comment will get some people to take a step back and think.
Why is that a crazy statement? The Catholic Church was founded on Pentacost following the Ascention. The books that comprise the Bible were, literally, all written after that point. The canon of the NT was not set until 300 years after that point (regional council of Carthage). Although you may be uncomfortable with it, the statement is not crazy...it is accurate.
Go ahead and flame but maybe my comment will get some people to take a step back and think.
Why would I flame you?
And I certainly hope some people will step back and think. Because if they actually do, rather than believe the honey-toned lies they've been told, they might recognize the truth of the statement that you attempted to rebut (unsuccessfully, I might add).
But have a great day and God's richest blessings to you. I hope you're happy where you currently worship!
Why is that a crazy statement? The Catholic Church was founded on Pentacost following the Ascention. The books that comprise the Bible were, literally, all written after that point. The canon of the NT was not set until 300 years after that point (regional council of Carthage). Although you may be uncomfortable with it, the statement is not crazy...it is accurate.
Go ahead and flame but maybe my comment will get some people to take a step back and think.
Why would I flame you?
And I certainly hope some people will step back and think. Because if they actually do, rather than believe the honey-toned lies they've been told, they might recognize the truth of the statement that you attempted to rebut (unsuccessfully, I might add).
But have a great day and God's richest blessings to you. I hope you're happy where you currently worship!
Nonsense!!! Can you tell us all when the word "Catholic Church" first appears in any nonspurious writings of anyone anywhere???
The body of believers (catholic) came into existence on Pentecost.
The Roman Catholic Church came into existence 3 centuries later, and was already coming up with some really weird doctorines in the 4th century.
Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.
- St. Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, to the Smyrnaeans c7, c. 110 AD
Correct.
The Roman Catholic Church came into existence 3 centuries later, and was already coming up with some really weird doctorines in the 4th century.
Incorrect. The Roman Catholic Church came into existence around 75 AD, when St. Peter arrived in Rome.
Where I believe you are confused is that the Catholic Church is the body of believers. There have been heresies that have resulted in schisms many times throughout Her history. The one that affects most Americans is the heresy that resulted in the schism of the 15th Century. While it's clearly not the fault of those, centuries later, who have been erroneously brought up in a paradigm that is upside down, history clearly demonstrates the actual facts of the situation. But, in fact, the Catholic Church, as you indicated above, is the whole body of believers. Because a relatively small portion of that body has chosen to separate themselves from that body doesn't change that fact.
I said non spurious not a fraudulent translation which that is. Those capital letters were added by dishonest disseminators of later centuries and your magisterium knows that.
Here is something for those who don't know that, or just like to pretend that they see the Catholic Church in the Book of Acts. It's from Ex-Jesuit Priest Peter Doeswyck, author of the following article: Romanism-Built Upon Forgeries:
"The entire structure of the Roman Church is built on forgeries, spurious epistles, spurious sermons, spurious miracles, spurious relics, spurious councils, and spurious papal bulls. The Catholic Encyclopedia admits the existence of thousands of forgeries and divides the works of nearly every Father into (1) genuine, (2) dubious, and (3) spurious. Roman inventions as Peter’s martyrdom at Rome (2nd cent.), Assumption of Mary (6th cent.), Temporal power of the bishop of Rome (8th cent.), Primacy of Rome (11th cent.), Seven Sacraments (13th cent.), etc., can only be proved by forgeries. Example: Cyprian (d. 258), like his predecessor, Tertullian, ridiculed the pagan system of a Supreme Pontiff, a Pope (pater patrum, bishop of bishops), a primacy, etc. Where his oldest MSS read: “The other apostles were indeed what Peter was: endowed with the same share of honor and jurisdiction,” we now have texts which read: “The other apostles were indeed what Peter was, but the Primacy is given to Peter.” The Catholic Encyclopedia comments that this conflated form is, of course, spurious (C. E. 4, 585).
"Catholic theologians claim that with the development of the primacy in the Middle Ages, the papal letters grew enormously in number (C.E. 6, 202). “There can be no doubt that during a great part of the Middle Ages papal and other documents were fabricated in a very unscrupulous fashion” (C.E. 3, 57). Speaking of the thousands of miraculous relics of Rome, the same scholars admit that “the majority of which no doubt were fraudulent,” a “multitude of unquestionably spurious relics” (C.E. 12, 737). The same scholars admit the following Roman frauds: the origin of the Rosary and the apparition of Mary to St. Dominic, the Scapular and the apparition of Mary to Simon Stock, the Santa Scala, the legends and relics of Veronica, the Holy Lance, and St. Longinus, the Robe, the Sabbatine Privilege, etc. Yet these same scholars are bound to confess that the written Word of God is not superior to these Roman traditions. The life stories and writings of the early popes are spurious, as the Catholic Encyclopedia often admits under their names. The earliest Roman rituals (8th cent.) are spurious, falsely attributed to Popes Leo, Gelasius, and Gregory (Migne P.L. 55 & 74 & 78).
"When scholars speak of an authentic work they do not imply that the text has come to us in its original form. Manuscripts were seldom copied for the sake of preservation, but rather for use as textbooks. Obsolete teachings and expressions were altered, while so-called “heretical” teachings were allowed to become extinct.
"As early as the fifth century Augustine accused and convicted Pope Zosiums for having falsified the 5th canon of the Council of Nice (Mansi 4, 515; Migne, P. L. 50, 422). Canon laws of the Roman Church are based on “The Apostolic Constitutions,” a 4th century forgery purported to be a collection of apostolic writings collected by Clement I. When Protestants exposed this fraud, the fallible Church of Rome admitted the errors: “The Apostolic Constitutions were held generally in high esteem and served as the basis for much ecclesiastical legislation . . .As late as 1563. . .it was contended that it was the genuine work of the apostles” (C.E. 1, 636). Framing “divine” laws and falsifying the Word of God is not the work of innocent Christian leaders. Example: “We, the twelve Apostles of the Lord, who are now together, give you in charge these Divine Constitutions concerning every ecclesiastical form, there being present with us Paul, the chosen vessel, our fellow apostle, and James the Bishop and the rest of the Elders and the seven Deacons” (Migne, P.G. 1, 1070).
“The Donation of Constantine was originally an 8th-century forgery which gave the pope temporal power and possessions, and regal honors and privileges. Pope Sylvester (1000 A.D.) declared it a forgery. Pope Leo IV (1054) rewrote the text and used it to prove his primacy. . .As early as the fifteenth century its falsity was known. Yet, the document was further used to authenticate the papacy.
"The Apostolic Constitutions, The Donation of Constantine, The Clementine Forgeries, The Liber Pontificals (Biographical book of the popes), The Decretals of Pseudo-Isidore, and hundreds of other works are either spurious or have been mutilated. It is upon these that the bulk of Roman traditions originated. Catholic scholars admit one forgery after the other, but the Council of Trent upheld these forgeries as genuine “traditions” to which the written Word of God is not superior. Roman Catholic theologians even admit that they themselves falsified the sacred books of other religions in order to win converts. As neither the majority of the people nor the lower clergy could read or write in the early Middle Ages, it is clear that the Roman hierarchy itself corrupted and falsified the true traditions. It is clear that Rome’s traditions did not originate from the lips of Christ or the apostles!"
[Adapted from an article entitled Medieval Forgeries.]
To confirm the article as being correct, we must remember what our Blessed Savior had said: “Peter you are rock and, on this rock I shall build my church.” So Jesus planted the seeds of the Church.
What is your qualification for being “non-spurious?”
Uncle Chip,
You can complain all you want, but Ignatius’ letter to the Smyrneans is genuine.
Also, as I already showed you in another thread, Doeswyk was a nut who believed the Jesuits were trying to seize control of American public schools (in the 1960s!!!).
You don’t seem to much going for your claims.
All scripture was produced by GOD!
But there are some, like the author of this article, that think that the Roman Catholic Church is God.
Please see post number 16. Thank-you.
But also God worked with the human writers to put the Bible together as we know it.
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