Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[tiki]

Okay, he answered it and if you care to respond, it’s all yours. My grandkids are on the phone.

[Enosh]

"I read that about one million people (presumably Protestants) refused to vote for JFK because JFK was Catholic."

That argument is tiresome!

Catholics are Christian, Mormons are not.

[ears_to_hear]

Not at all. My beliefs and practices are not limited to scripture. Surely you are familiar enough with Catholicism to understand that.

Would you say that most of your church practices are extrascripitual? See you are taking the word of the church ON FAITH ALONE and without any assurance or confirmation that what you are doing is even ok with God let alone blessed by Him

Later this evening, I will gather my children, we will light candles and kneel before this big white ceramic statue of Mary and say the Hail Mary fifty three times, sometimes in latin, since we all know how Satan hates that language.

Satan hates the name of Christ. He does not mind latin or prayers and candles before a statue , because all of that keeps you from worshipping the only one worthy of worship. In fact satan loves your prayer time

I will be doing something that many a great Catholic saint has done, and following the advice of several popes, as well as the Blessed Virgin herself at Lourdes and Fatima. My church has deemed the rosary as high quality devotion, even setting aside a Sunday to celebrate it. That's good enough for me.

Can you know with assurance that Fatima and Lourdes were not demonic manifestations? Where do you find that God has used the physically deceased to communicate with men?

I know your church loves the rosary, but how do you know God does? Do you seek to please God or men?

[GoLightly]

Footwear? I’m one of those rare women who are *not* into shoes. This girls feet like to be freeeeee. I actually forgot to pack shoes (and I didn’t wear any for the 8 hour drive) for one of my grandfather’s funerals. We’re talking, itty bitty town, no stores for miles & there I was without any footwear. Thank goodness someone had a relative with big feet to lend me a pair of sandals.

[LordBridey]

What more is there?

There is John 21:25.

But back to Timothy. Profitable is not the same as solely sufficient. Paul is only saying what a great aid scripture is, but in no way is he defining sola scriptura.

[ears_to_hear]

Scripturally, in Revelation the saints offer up our prayers to God, so they are aware of our prayers. They are only omnipresent to the extent that they are with God and He is omnipresent. No one is like God. And no Catholic who knows their faith would say or imply that the saints have any supernatural power outside of God's power.

That is not exactly what the scripture says tiki

Lets look at it

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

You are defining the word saint as Saint . In scripture ( the time of the revelation) the word saint had only one application and that was to the believers in the living church.. The greek here is hagios or "holy one" not canonized people that have died and gone to heaven . The elect, the believers in the NT are called saints.

Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints (.hagios )

Those are OUR prayers that the angels are offering up to God . You have to read scripture through scripture.God chose greek for the NT because it is the most precise language.If John meant something other than the living saints he would have said so

They are only omnipresent to the extent that they are with God and He is omnipresent. No one is like God. And no Catholic who knows their faith would say or imply that the saints have any supernatural power outside of God's power.

If they are not omnipresent, how do they hear all the prayers of all the people all over the world praying at one time ?

[ears_to_hear]

Amen

[Frank Sheed]

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio; contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium. Imperat illi Deus; supplices deprecamur: tuque, Princeps militiae coelestis, Satanam aliosque spiritus malignos, qui ad perditionem animarum pervagantur in mundo, divina virtute in infernum detrude. Amen

[xzins]

"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." -- Mark 7:7

This is the perfect verse for this discussion.

In our service on Sunday morning we use cards in the pew backs for folks to use to make requests for prayer. It is nothing more than a tool.

Imagine, though, that someone began to think that the card itself was sanctified. Imagine cards with gold edging, and people with decks of cards, and little pouches on belts for holding the cards, and rules about how to lay the cards out.....

And then they begin to teach the cards, and the doctrine of cards...

[ears_to_hear]

No way you are a grandparent..

[ears_to_hear]

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio; contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium. Imperat illi Deus; supplices deprecamur: tuque, Princeps militiae coelestis, Satanam aliosque spiritus malignos, qui ad perditionem animarum pervagantur in mundo, divina virtute in infernum detrude. Amen

LOL Is that to scare the devil away?

How does an angel get to be a saint anyway? A Saint is one that has lived a Christian life and been obedient to Gods law. How does an angel "fit' into that ?

The Bible tells us the angels have to watch us to learn about God, so it is hard to fantom how an angel , that does not have the indwelling Holy Spirt or that was not saved by the cross could be a 'saint" .Do you have any scripture on that frank

[GoLightly]

And then they begin to teach the cards, and the doctrine of cards...

I think we have to watch for signs (like a great victory in battle or a healing that was asked for on one of the cards) to prove the value of the cards before we build up too much card doctrine.

[livius]

No, the wine and the bread are consecrated in separate vessels. In the past, Catholics took Communion under only one “species” - that is, form - that of bread. After VatII, it became more common to offer the chalice as well.

Protestants don’t believe that any real change occurs in the bread and wine, and regard the whole event as symbolic.

I was once in a Protestant church, many, many years ago, when I was a child, and I saw the little tiny cups of grape juice and the racks that were installed on the backs of the pews to hold them - and I was really dumbfounded!

On the other hand, Orthodox and Byzantine Rite Catholics give Communion under two species, that is, both the bread and the wine, mixing them together and using a little spoon to give Communion to the faithful.

So there are many different ways that this can be done. But the important thing is what you and your church believe happens at the consecration of the bread and wine. Is it symbol, or is it a transformation?

[Enosh]

"The Bible tells us the angels have to watch us to learn about God"

*Cough!* I can't wait for the Scripture on that one.

[Grunthor]

“for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other’s worship services”

I went to a Catholic Mass once. Everything seemed to be in a foreign language. I understood nothing and grew quite bored. I decided to check out a few Protestant services and finally settled in with a conservative Baptist Church.

All that being said, I think that Catholics are some of the nicest people I’ve ever met and I don’t believe they are any more or less bound for hell than anyone else.

[livius]

No, actually, it’s not. Maybe you should find out what Catholics (and some Protestants) really believe about this. What do you believe about it, btw?

[Frank Sheed]

Thanks, friend! I’m glad your personal experience was a good one.

By the way, I’m with Fred too!

F

[P-Marlowe]

And then they begin to teach the cards, and the doctrine of cards...

You could put a bunch of the sacred prayer cards on a chain and then chant the sacred prayer card Prayer over and over again as you work your way through the chain.

Now if we could just come up with a good chant for the sacred card chain, we could start a new sacred tradition.

How's this:

Sacred Card Chain
Edged with Gold
Lamination is with thee
Bessed are thou among paper goods
And blessed is the fruit
Of thy paper tree, Aspen

[Enosh]

"Everything seemed to be in a foreign language."

That was Latin, "Padre de Español."

*Snicker*

No worries, he said all the right things.

[LordBridey]

Would you say that most of your church practices are extrascripitual?

No. I would say that most of our church practices are scriptural. 90% +.

See you are taking the word of the church ON FAITH ALONE and without any assurance or confirmation that what you are doing is even ok with God let alone blessed by Him.

I believe I have told you before how reason plays its role, how history plays a role, how tradition plays a role, how scripture plays a role.....but if one believes that the RCC is the Church that Christ founded then the Holy Spirit has a role as well, so it is ok with God.

Satan hates the name of Christ. He does not mind latin or prayers and candles before a statue , because all of that keeps you from worshipping the only one worthy of worship. In fact satan loves your prayer time

My mention of latin was in reference to another recent thread about Satan hating latin. It was meant in humor. Christ is the subject of the rosary. It is entirely Christocentric. I have referred you to " Rosarium Virginus Mariae ". The great pope explains everything about the rosary one could want to know, and in terms I think you would appreciate, but I suppose one needs ears to hear. Satan hates my rosary.

Can you know with assurance that Fatima and Lourdes were not demonic manifestations? Where do you find that God has used the physically deceased to communicate with men?

Yes, because Fatima and Lourdes draw people to Christ. Mary "magnifies the greatness of the Lord." One does not see her without seeing the Incarnation. Off the top of my head the transfiguration demonstrates the physically deceased communicating with men.

I know your church loves the rosary, but how do you know God does? Do you seek to please God or men?

I think that God is pleased that we honor His mother in the way that we do. That she continues to play an important role in our faith-life, just as He graced her with such an important role in His revelation.