Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[pjr12345]

Seems like you’re an experienced purgatorian. Any recommendations on footwear?

[GoLightly]

The Priest dips the altar bread in the wine, right? For years I thought that the Priest was hoggin all of the wine, cuz I never saw any individual little glasses like I was used to seeing.

[tiki]

I asked for your source on that belief and if they, like God are omnipresent.

Scripturally, in Revelation the saints offer up our prayers to God, so they are aware of our prayers. They are only omnipresent to the extent that they are with God and He is omnipresent. No one is like God. And no Catholic who knows their faith would say or imply that the saints have any supernatural power outside of God's power.

If I had my friends and they were never separated from me then they would be with me wherever I went. Consider Romans 8:33-39, I will assume beforehand that you will challenge it but so be it.

[pjr12345]

The Priest dips the altar bread in the wine

Sort of like the adult beverage version of milk and cookies!

[GoLightly]

I don’t think you’re seeing the inter-prosty squabbling going on in this thread, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t there.

[Frank Sheed]

My nephew puts his sons, 4 and 2 1/2, to bed each night with a decade of the rosary. It is marvelous to see the younger one try his best to make the Sign of the Cross. ;-o)

In the Immaculata+
F

[Saundra Duffy]

I read that about one million people (presumably Protestants) refused to vote for JFK because JFK was Catholic.

[tiki]

But isn’t it interesting that you seem to think that you are the only one who can discern what that conforms to God’s word.

[Frank Sheed]

The cemeteries in Chicago all voted three times so that more than made up for the low count in the rural South! The “Daley political machine” is an amazing spectacle! And Nixon knew he had been “outflanked.”

Some things change but Dem politics always stay the same.

;-o)

[Tax-chick]

I agree with what you posted earlier, tiki. Reading this is making me feel like throwing up (and no, I'm not pregnant, before anyone asks.)

The light of Christ surrounds us.
The love of Christ enfolds us.
The power of Christ protects us.
The presence of Christ watches over us.

[markomalley]

AVE MARIA, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

[tiki]

602, 603, sounds like the Holy Spirit was speaking to 2 of you almost simultaneously.

[GoLightly]

On a more serious note. My catholic mother would prefer me to be a carousing, fallen catholic like my brother than a faithful Christian. Go figure!

I'm still waiting for my MIL to make good on her promise to haunt her son. Moms never fully give up hope that they were a good influence on you, which means you make the choices they would choose for you, if they had the power. I'm sure your mom is quite bothered by your brother, but can't let you see that.

[Frank Sheed]

We won’t let him have a Papist tee shirt, Mrs. Tax. Tiki and I have discussed it and I’m certain the Tiber “crew” will agree.

+Anathema sit!+

F

[GoLightly]

Wiki’s not a reliable source? I’m shocked, shocked, I tell you!!

[lastchance]

I was addressing my post to a fellow Catholic. I don’t expect Protestants to believe that the BVM appeared to St. Dominic and instructed him on the use of the rosary. Which by the way is for Catholics a private devotion and not something one has to do.

My suggestion to Protestants was to use the rosary as a way to meditate on the life of Christ while reciting the Psalms. The beads were first used as a way of keeping track of the Psalms said.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

My beliefs and practices are not limited to scripture.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." -- 2 Timothy 3:16-17

What more is there?

In fact, Christ is pretty specific about doctrines and practices not found in Scripture...

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." -- Matthew 15:9

"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." -- Mark 7:7

Further, Scripture echoes Christ's warning...

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" -- 1 Timothy 4:1

"Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines." -- Hebrews 13:9

God is very clear. We're not supposed to fall down to the stock of a tree.

[ears_to_hear]

Sorry I never saw this post

I listened at mass, I followed a missal and did all the prayers by rote as they were taught.

I am a graduate of Catholic schools,

Before I left the church I was teaching classes and giving retreats.

I may know more Catholic doctrine than you do :)

Why do you think we cross ourselves on the forehead, lips and heart, we are asking that the Word is in our minds, on our lips and in our hearts. Or that we ponder the Word, speak the Word and accept it into our hearts.

The word can not be in your mind unless you put it there. Then God has to move it to your heart. Making little crosses on your forehead and chest does not do it .

One can not "ponder" the word if it is not in front of them to ponder

I also know and knew lots of Baptists, Methodists and kids from every faith who never felt the need to read the Bible. It doesn't mean it wasn't there and present through their church services and the lives of the faithful if they cared to listen. I know a lot of Catholics who say what you say, but they obviously didn't feel called to do the hard work it took to find about what their faith really taught

There are many many unsaved men , women and children in Protestant churches. They go to church for reasons similar to Catholics, family tradition, obligation, business contacts or friends or because they think going to church makes them good people God will save. One of the marks of regeneration is a longing for the word of God, to understand and learn more about God. The elect want the word of God to make them grow and to discipline them .

The non elect listen to a verse and say "how nice" never even understanding it. Being Protestant is no guarantee of salvation, but evangelical protestant churches are a great place to learn about God and grow to maturity for the saved

I have seen 2 citations in the last day of the scripture about mother's milk and eating meat but do they even consider that there comes a time when we have to find our own meal or die, that along with no longer needing mother's milk that we grow and provide our own food? That the mother who sustained us expects us to do something for ourselves.

And my friend you need to look beyond your 'mother church" and find that meat of scripture for yourself

I've read your posts and you seem to want me and others to listen to your interpretation of the Bible and believe the faith that you are in now. Then you say that you were a Catholic and didn't hold a Bible until you were 30. If not why not? If someone informed you wrongly why didn't you ask questions until you found the truth? Why do you believe that you didn't read the Bible, even if it wasn't in a compiled Bible. I remember scripture from church services before I knew how to read. Why didn't you ponder the Word every week or read it in the missal?

I am a calvinist, I do not believe that most people will even understand what I am saying, let alone accept it. I do like the words of paul here "Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

We are called to spread seeds. The only ground they will grow in is Ground prepared by God to receive it

The Catholic church never encouraged scripture study, Bibles were seen as subversive in a way. A friend tells me when she told a priest she was reading her bible and was "born again" he told her to throw out the bible because one can not be a bible believer and a Catholic .She left the church that day. Yes i read the readings in the missal , but the readings are disjointed and out of context . It is not until one cross references and starts to look at the greek and hold EVERY WORD as important that one sees the depth of scripture or its message

Now, I'm going to shock you. I don't think that I NEED the Bible, personally to be saved. I believe that it contains all the information I need to be saved, I believe that it is the inspired Word of God, I believe that it is infallible, I believe that it is an incredible gift, I believe I can draw unbelievable wisdom from it, I believe I can draw closer to God by reading it but I also believe that God could save me if I had never heard of the Bible, if I couldn't see, or hear or think or if it had never been.

Could you be saved without the gospel? Are the jews saved? the muslims? Buddhists? Where do you draw that line ?

I do not believe that a bible is necessary for salvation. BUT one does need the gospel . In China there is one town where all they have is the gospel of John. They have torn it up and shared it among home churchs. They memorize each piece when it comes. THAT is a mark of regeneration

If I believed that one had to have the Bible to be saved, I would have to believe that Peter and Paul aren't in heaven because they never saw the Bible

They had the OT which fully reveals the gospel. Note that most of their teachings are based on it, so it is an error to believe they did not have scriptures. Also Peter told the church that Pauls letters were scripture. So the early church did have scripture.

and Paul didn't see Christ when he walked this earth. I would have to believe that all those early Christians are lost in some limbo and they will never see the face of God (because surely they wouldn't be in hell)

The early church fathers believed limbo was a merciful part of hell BTW

because they didn't read a Bible

Again they did have a bible. If you really read it you know that much of the NT is OT quotes. On the road to Emasas Christ taught them the truth of the OT prophecy .

If it wasn't written it would still be true. If I couldn't avail myself of the Bible, it would still be true,

But you would not know it would you?

God alone saves, the Bible is a gift to his people in written form. It is an aid to our salvation and it teaches us, but it does not save, God does.

We only know that because of the scripture. The Bible is not optional to the saved. If Christ stood in your living room and was talking to you, would say you had to run to Target to get soda? That people do not hunger and thirst for the word of God speaks to their eternal condition IMHO.

[tiki]

Could anyone really be so blind to their own hatefulness? Could anyone really believe that someone is serving God in such a remark?

Seems to me that someone called me on the carpet for actually telling the truth and I apologized, I take it back.

I wonder if people who make such comments spend their time pulling wings off of butterflies.

[GoLightly]

Alright, I’ll take your word for it. I guess there is a down from here. LOL