Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[trisham]

Are you a vegetarian?

[Tax-chick]

Not officially, but I like vegetables and grains much better than meat, so when I set the menu, it’s a lot of The Bean Dish. My husband can’t take it for very long, though :-).

[Tax-chick]

For crying out loud there’s whole lot of assuming going on around here about whether somebody’s prayer is done right, or heard right. The Lord is perfectly capable of understanding the prayers of His own, however they come to Him. He’s the great Interpreter of what’s going on and no thanks to us humans who think we can take account about such matters as He can.

Raucous round of applause! I was thinking the same thing.

[trisham]

Cheerios and Chablis is an acquired taste, but not bad.

***********

Oy!

[trisham]

why in the world do you think Catholics wouldn’t admit to worshipping Mary if that’s what they actually do? Fear of receiving the scorn of their fellow Christians?

***************

LOL! Excellent point.

[Enosh]

You gotta admit, "Swimming the Tiber" is cute slang.

[A.A. Cunningham]

Most protestants don’t know that Luther prayed the rosary and was very devoted to the Blessed Mother.

[trisham]

What? A man who doesn’t love beans? :)

[ichabod1]

Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, Amen.

versus,

Dearest Lowered, we jes wanna pry, we jes wanna let you kneew that wyee kneeow yore in Heaven, and we jes pry that yore naime be hollowed all across the werld lahk it is up there in heaven. And Lowered, we jes pray that you-ll feed us with the mailk of rahtchussnuss tadaiy, and have murcy own us, Lowered, we jes aisk that you-ll haive murcy own us and we jes promise, Lowered, to be compassionate to others.... blah blah blah.

Tell me, which one is prattling mindlessly (and endlessly)?

[GoLightly]

Wow! Your post makes me feel bad inside.

What would be in the heart of each of those who are praying?

[Tax-chick]

Hard to believe, isn’t it? They don’t want the Lentil Casserole again? Sauteed green beens with mushrooms?

They want MEAT? DEAD stuff?!?

[ichabod1]

whaddyamean?

[GoLightly]

Do you think form matters more to our Father than what we have in our hearts when we pray?

[Enosh]

Daniel 10:12

Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.

Exodus 4:10-11

Moses said to the LORD, "O Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue."

The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

[Suzy Quzy]

OMG!! I’m crying.....thanks for sharing that wonderful story.

[N3WBI3]

The prayer that Jesus gave us is "NOT EFFECTIVE PRAYER"? I really can't believe you said that.

2+2=4 is a great basis for a useful skill but if you try to make everything 2+2 youre math is not powerful. Jesus was teaching a formula for prayer.

So I guess no one should go to church or prayer groups anymore....

Not! what I said I dais do do it with the intention of drawing attention to youself as to how holy you are.

I don't prattle, thanks.

Repeating the same scripted thing 100 times is prattling

Thank you so much. However did I start my day without you? :) :)

Not what I meant and you know it, yet somehow I knew a straw man would be made of that. I was only trying to show you this is not about bashing the lords prayer but a clarification of position, this is not a 'lord prayer is bad' post.

Actually, the rosary contains 6 Our Fathers, and yeah boy, do they have significance - because they were given to us by the Savior. I'll say one tonight for you.

Actually he gave it to us in aramiac, maybe you should say it in that at least then you wont be praying with all the though a ten year old puts into it. The lors prayer is powerful in thats its how to pray not just what to pray.

Hop you had a good nights sleep. Ill say a prayer for you today.

[Suzy Quzy]

Wow...Thanks.

[N3WBI3]

Because your repeating something from wrote memory off the cuff. It is sort of like paul said babys milk, not meat. Jesus was teaching how to pray.

[Running On Empty]

I have a feeling sandyeggo doesn’t need a lot of advice about how she is to pray.

Hopefully, no one will try to tell you how to pray as well.

It takes a lot of chatzpuh to make oneself a spiritual director to another.

[Running On Empty]

Sorry I forgot to ping you