Posted on 04/16/2007 11:26:42 AM PDT by franky1
On Saturday, April 14, 2007, St. Clare of Assisi Church in Johnstown, Pa., concluded its Divine Mercy Novena. Preceding the Mass, a dinner and question and answer session with Bishop Joseph Adamec of the Diocese of Altoona-Johnstown was held.
During the 'Town Hall'-style question and answer session, one parishioner asked Adamec about recent articles in the local Catholic newspaper regarding an anticipated papal document, and whether our diocese had plans for making a Tridentine Mass available.
Adamec responded, 'No.'
He said the Tridentine rite is only a concession to the Lefebvrites, and there is no need for it here because that situation does not exist here. Adamec said a Latin Mass could be made available [referring to the Novus Ordo with some Latin], but if the Tridentine rite is offered, it is a different rite, and you have to go back to the old forms of spirituality that went with it. He also said you have to go back to the old forms of sacraments, fasting and other aspects.
He asked why the parishioner was asking.
The parishioner said they have attended Tridentine rite Masses in the past, and that parishes offering the Tridentine rite were flourishing, with many young, large families who took documents like Humanae Vitae to heart, to which the bishop made an unintelligible remark that nonetheless seemed derogatory.
Please note that Adamec's comments were made the same week in which two articles about the anticipated papal Motu Proprio appeared in his own diocesan paper, and just a week after the following letter to the editor was published in the local Johnstown Tribune Democrat newspaper:
For those traditional Catholics who yearn for a return of the traditional Latin mass, there is great news. Pope Benedict's Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Bertone, confirmed last week that a papal document freeing the old Latin Mass will be released soon, possible during Holy Week. According to Cardinal Bertone, 'there is no valid reason not to grant to every priest in the world the right to celebrate according to this form...The Sovereign Pontiff will personally explain his vision for the use of the ancient Missal to the Christian people, and particularly to the Bishops.'
Furthermore, according to an article of the US bishops' Catholic News Service last week, 'One big clue to the pope's thinking came in his 1997 book...in which he sharply criticized the drastic manner in which Pope Paul VI reformed the Mass in 1969.... Thus the liturgy ceased to be a living development and was treated as something manufactured by experts, which has caused the church 'enormous harm,' he said.'
The new papal document, a 'universal indult,' would replace the existing indult that dates back to 1988, when Pope John Paul II's Ecclesia Dei authorized use of the Tridentine rite under more restricted conditions. The permission of the local bishop will no longer be necessary, at least in part because many bishops have refused to obey Pope John Paul II's Ecclesia Dei instructions for a "broad and generous" use of the traditional Latin mass. For more information, please go to www.universalindult.org.
— Dr. Brian Kopp Johnstown, PA
And the Blessed Sacrament was no where to be scene but the King's Chair sat right in the middle, top of the altar where the Blessed Sacrament should have been.
The local priest looked like Henry VIII.
The Most Reverend Joseph Victor Adamec was born on August 13, 1935
Seems like a long time until 2010.
SS. Cyril and Methodius, pray for us.
I'm really trying to be charitable here, but His Excellency is really pushing it. TLM is not a concession to the Lefebvrites...it was in fact NEVER abolished, as the Vatican has admitted.
Yes it is a different rite. So what. Is there some law against a different rite I'm not aware of?
This attitude is simply infuriating.
So who is worse? Adamec or Trautman?
Can anyone elaborate what "old forms of spirituality... sacraments" means?
I do understand the current (NO) fasting aspect, which seems very relaxed to us Eastern Orthodox.
My other question is: wh is the Tridentine Rite Mass aparently treated as some sort of "leper" rite? Surely, it was part of the Church history it is considered 'valid.'
Orthodox churches normally use the 1,600-year-old Divine Liturgy of Sain John Chrysostom, but on 14 occasions in one calendar year the Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil the Great (which is a little longer than the former) is served.
As far as I know, there is no freedom to choose which one will be served.
Wouldn't it be possible to integrate the Trindentine and NO Mass in a similar manner? In other words, serve the NO Mass most of the year and the Tridentine Mass on special feasts?
There is a diocesan approved Tridentine Mass Apostolate that has Mass at two parishes; one is in Erie, and the other is about a half hour south of Erie (and to my knowledge is weekly). Even if Bishop Trautman doesn't like the Tridentine Mass, he at least allows it per Ecclesia Dei.
“Wouldn’t it be possible to integrate the Trindentine and NO Mass in a similar manner? In other words, serve the NO Mass most of the year and the Tridentine Mass on special feasts?”
What about the TLM being exclusive to churches built before 1970AD and the NO for those built after that date?
I think a main reason there is so much opposition to the TLM is because females are not allowed to participate in the sanctuary.
Like in my NO parish the majority of the altar servers, communion ministers, readers and even the choir are female.
**What about the TLM being exclusive to churches built before 1970AD and the NO for those built after that date?**
I don’t think this would work, because not all current priests are current (or enthused) with Latin.
But isn't the Church then saying that TLM is "wrong" or at least "outdated," or even "politically incorrect?"
Of course, the Orthodox Church to this day have male-only servers.
**But isn*t the Church then saying that TLM is “wrong” or at least “outdated,” or even “politically incorrect?”**
Yes indeed! They are some who believe that nothing of importance or significance happened between the day of Pentecost and Vatican II.
That's sad. Tha Latin Church has a long and rich liturgical history and discipline. I can't imagine this would be given up so easily.
This seems a little redundant. Isn't that what the supporters of the Tridentine Mass are asking for?
Right now in most places where the old Mass is offered, it's just one token Mass on Sunday (often at a strange hour like 2 PM). Few are the places where you can get all the sacraments in the traditional Latin rite (and these are usually from orders like the FSSP or ICK).
I'm guessing Adamec is also including those old forms of devotion that were popular in the 1950s but which were put on the Index of Forbidden Practices by the enlightened liberals after Vatican II: including Exposition and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. The calendars, also, are quite different: what used to be St. Valentine's (Feb 14th) is now St. Cyril and Methodius. The season of Septuagesima before Lent was summarily suppressed, as were ember days.
The liturgical revolution has been much more extensive than just the Mass itself--it was a wholesale effort to wipe out 1500 years of Latin tradition. The Latin Mass is treated as a leper rite because the progressives are deadly serious about not going back to those "bad old days"; but I think (I pray) they are fighting a losing battle. Adamec is saying that the old Mass is allowed pastorally only insofar as it keeps folks from going to the SSPX. That's BS.
Regarding the Eastern practices with the DLs of Chrysostom and Basil, I think you're spot on. The motu proprio which we're all waiting for is going to free up the old Mass a bit, and there will be a period of adjustment where it gets reintegrated into the life of the Church. The calendars have to be reconciled somehow. And I can definitely envision a future where the old Mass is mandated, say, on the feast of St. Gregory.
The Church is not saying that. Some of its bishops are saying that, but they do not have the last word on the matter. Their pride and disobedience is showing.
And on the feast of Corpus Christi, please. St. Thomas Aquinas' Office (including the Mass) for that feast is an absolute marvel and extremely beautiful.
The document to be published supposedly makes this point clearly: the TLM is the extraordinary form of the Latin Rite; the Mass of Paul VI is the ordinary form thereof.
I am hoping the motu proprio is published soon. The freeing of the TLM is long overdue.
Sure, Corpus Christi! Maybe Feast of the Chair of St. Peter.
I’m not in charge, so I don’t get to decide, but I think it’s a good idea.
(And when we get that done, we can talk about adopting the old Caughnawagan Use for the feast of (please God) Saint Kateri Tekakwitha. But that’s for another thread! ;)
I think he does make an interesting point about the fasting and spirituality. The liturgy is more than a 60 minute presentation once a week- it’s a lifestyle. The fasting and spirituality were as much a part of the Tridentine Rite as the Latin and wine. Are those parishioners who are asking for the Tridentine Rite prepared to commit themselves to the Tridentine lifestyle (including the old Lenten fasting rules)?
I suspect that the interest in the Tridentine Rites is not so much a desire to return to the past as it is a reaction to the watered-down, sloppy, and occasionally irreverent services cropping up in suburban parishes.
It is interesting to note that there is also a lot of interest in traditional services in Anglican and Orthodox Churches by younger generations.
Most of the people I know who currently attend the traditional Latin Mass ("Tridentine" is not wholly accurate, but that is another discussion) do follow the traditional "lifestyle" including fasting from midnight before Sunday Mass (which is more of a challenge today because not every TLM is offered in the morning), Lenten fasting and abstinence, abstinence on Fridays, and devotions such as novenas, Benediction and Adoration.
He does indeed. And I think you're right about the lifestyle; much of that should return in the NO once we get our bearings again. Hopefully. :)
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