Posted on 04/12/2007 12:23:10 PM PDT by topcat54
But certainly one’s eschatology does to some measure contribute to whether you view your responsibility as “soul winning” vs. “kingdom building”.
Are you polishing brass on a sinking ship or tending to the mustard seed that is growing into a large tree?
These are fundamentally eschatological questions.
Three threads, and still nobody has been able to disprove Scripture as interpreted from the view point of dispensational ages.
Maybe instead of attacking believers in an adversarial fashion, those who don’t understand the significance of dispensations in Prophecy might simply return to God through faith in Christ and allow Him to guide them.
Well since you know it all, topcat, why are you so preoccupied with accusing other believers, categorizing them into denominations, rather than simply letting Scripture speak for itself? BTW, Chafer and a number of other dispensational authors rarely follow denominational lines, but instead by studying Scripture, have recognized and discerned some prophetic programs which are not fulfilled by the Church, and accordingly have studied His Word for how He presents His plan. Since you know it all, obviously you could help other believers learn Scripture, if you are filled with the Holy Spirit and gifted by Him to so teach.
Of course, attmpting to promote Covenant Theology is considerably more problematic than those who recognize the dispensations, ages, and times of Scriptural Prophecy.
We must be reading different threads. :-)
Actually the dispensationalists are dropping like flies and many are now refusing to answer straight up questions.
Maybe instead of attacking believers in an adversarial fashion, those who don’t understand the significance of dispensations in Prophecy might simply return to God through faith in Christ and allow Him to guide them.
But suppose we do “understand the significance of dispensations in Prophecy” (according to the dispensationalists) and what if these "dispensational truths" invented in 1830 by Darby and Co. are not really from the Spirit of God through the Word of God, but are simply an invention of the enemy?
Should we just roll over and play dead?
Btw, are you still working on an answer to my question about the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union?
I asked, “You still have not told me what it is, or what it has to do with the subject we have been discussing. How do I know you understand the doctrine and are properly applying it?”
Allow me to parse this:
1) preoccupied with accusing other believers,
I’m not sure what I’m accusing other believer of other than their view of Scripture may be deficient. You and others here do that to me all the time. So you should not have a problem with it.
2) categorizing them into denominations, rather
I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned another person’s denomination in this forum, or “accused” them of being such-and-so denomination.
3) than simply letting Scripture speak for itself?
That’s precisely what I do. That why I’m not a dispensationalist and why I oppose it so vocally. In order to be a dispensationalist I would need to adopt an authority other than the Bible because frankly these “dispensational truths” are not found there.
Like so many of your posts, topcat, the opportunity exists for you to offer something constructive, but instead suppose everybody owes you something.
Your responding post insisted you already knew everything about the Hypostatic Union and not once have you offered anything constructive in comprehending its meaning other than claiming you are an expert to judge everybody else.
Before one can learn, one must exercise some humility. You’ve tipped your hand by first pretending you didn’t know anything about the Hypostatic Union, then claimed you know it all. Since you know it all, I need not do your homework for you as I previously did.
Just think of all the missed opportunities you had to grow with Him when you had such direct interaction with so many leading brethren, but now resort to attacking them.
BTW, in case you missed it, and you probably did, the reason I posted an article by this particular author is because it was written by the same person that FReeper xzins tried to use against the preterist position. The author just happens to be Reformed and just happens to be in the same denomination as me and some others here who are orthodox (partial) preterists and opposed to dispensationalism.
Also, in case you have never experienced it, Chafer’s denominational affiliation (he was Presbyterian) is often used to suggest dispensationalism is consistent with a totally Reformed worldview. It is not, as all Reformed denominations have attested in one way or another.
Hmmm, you subtly accuse me of being out of fellowship with God because I'm not a dispensationalist ("might simply return to God through faith in Christ"), and now I'm supposed to be "constructive”?
And your first post back at #23 starts off with this highly debatable comment, “and still nobody has been able to disprove Scripture as interpreted from the view point of dispensational ages.”
How is that being constructive?
This is rich. Methinks someone has a log in their eye.
Your responding post insisted you already knew everything about the Hypostatic Union and not once have you offered anything constructive in comprehending its meaning other than claiming you are an expert to judge everybody else.
I still have no clue how the doctrine applied to the subject we were discussing, and you never answered by question about how it applied. Is that being “constructive”?
Before one can learn, one must exercise some humility. You’ve tipped your hand by first pretending you didn’t know anything about the Hypostatic Union, …
I never pretended anything. And you never answered my question. Are you too proud to do so?
I'll accept your honest answer anytime. And I'm quite prepared to discuss the merits and deficiencies of dispensationalism. You know where I can be found.
Yes,..but I don't visit Purgatory that often...;^)
About your question...
Seems to me any belief in a “rapture” (pre or post) is not correct according to scriptures.
I think the change (from mortality to immortality) will take place as the Word contained in the 7th trumpet is revealed at His coming.
Then we shall all be changed into the same glory of those who are returning with the Lord Jesus (see also the Epistle of Jude...ten thousands coming back with the Lord).
But until that all takes place, no one will be leaving the earth except through the regular way of dying a natural death.
In other words, there is no rapture at all to take you away from earth. You will either die a natural death, or if you are still alive at His coming, you will be changed by putting on the immortal, spiritual body then.
There won’t be people physically flying off the earth up into the atmosphere. We will just be changed.
Through studying all the end time scriptures (and not just one scripture in I Thessolonians chapter 4), I think the scriptures present this view of His coming.
...or should I say at least something close to God’s view. For now we all definitely see only “through a glass darkly.” I sure don’t claim to have all the answers or anywhere near close to it!
After the third chapter of Revelation, the word “Church” does not occur again. Another indicator that the Church is removed from earth by the Rapture with the close of the third chapter and a promise within, “I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”(Rev 3:10)
Just because the word church doesn’t occur again does not mean God’s people have flown off into the atmosphere.
And the promise to “keep thee from the hour of temptation” would definitely mean to be kept, preserved, protected during that time of trial.
As Jesus prayed in John 17, that the Father would keep His children....that they would NOT be taken out of the world, but that they would be kept from the evil one.
Jesus said His coming would be as the days of Noah and as the days of Lot. In both instances, Noah, Lot, and families were kept from the judgment and destruction that came upon the earth. But they were still on the earth...were not taken out of the earth or fly off into the atmosphere.
When do you place the 2nd advent? After the tribulation of that day? Where do the 10,000 come from with Christ? Are they pre Christ saints like Abraham and such? Or are they those born of water and spirit?
No need to jump to conclusions.
Caught up in the air? yes. Perhaps air, perhaps pneuma as in spirit.
John 17:15 also indicates that through faith in Christ, once the Church has been completely formed, He had faith his Church would not suffer PONEROS or evil that is good for nothingness or calamitous.
I understand how many people might be influenced by human good, mistaking a worldly system of human good for a heavenly kingdom on earth, especially when they happen to win in this world. One of the most powerful drugs to the human psyche is success at endeavors of the volition and is remarkably used by the Adversary to parlay human good works into his policy of evil. There are many in the Church who backslide into worldly systems of success, rightly thinking they are performing good works, but failing to discern between human good and Divine good.
Such lack of discernment of human good from Divine good points directly to why this present worldly system will fail.
I also can understand why some post or a millenialists might think Christ is heaven is sufficient with our continueing sanctification here to win over the whole world to Him, but I do not have such faith in the world as I have in Him as I find the world to not be as trustworthy (/gross understatement).
When the Restrainer is removed, there is nothing which the Church might perform here for Divine Good.
The angelic domain indubitably watch the efforts of man to prolong this world and delay His 2nd Advent. Every knee will bow and his enemies will be made his footstool. At the bema seat, I suspect you might be given opportunity to further understand why ages have been appointed, although it also exists now, whereas later no reward is handed out to those who reject it.
True for us all.
"For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. "
But I suppose that is your way of saying you are not going to answer any questions.
Pity.
The Greek word is air not pneuma.
Nice try.
No event short of Christ's Second ComingTM
And where will this Second ComingTM occur?
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air:(AER) and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You are correct.
Interesting,..I had previously read the verse (in studying the Rapture), thinking it meant a physical property and had been surprised to discover it used the word PNEUMA when I read the Greek, which I understood to be interpreted as air but might be interpreted as spirit in further study. I’m going back through my notes now to try to figure out what verse I must be confusing it with,...
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