Posted on 03/07/2007 9:10:18 AM PST by Salvation
So, themn, 'born again' are not lustful and envious, cunning and deceitful?
Earthly joy is not heavenly, but what's the point. Your examnples are here and now. Who will convince Narcis that self-love is no love? That's why we are not in the same church. 'Nuff said.
So, what was Adam's 'personality?' God didn't say He created a 'personality.' He created man. What He created in Adam is what is in you, and in all of us. Are you any less prone to sin then any other man? Were you born unrighteous because of your personality? Were you 'saved' because of your personality? The only place where personality plays a role is in self-love, narcissism, arrogance and pride. Those are not God-created attributes.
I strongly disagree.
A number of those Scriptures applied to believers to all times.
And you seem to trash part of the Scripture:
Love your neighbor AS YOURSELF.
As well as Paul's about a person loving his own body.
I can't imagine how sloppy rubber dictionary definitions are a help theologically . . . oh, right, except for folks who like rubber Bibles.
So, do you REALLY THINK that God's joys for His kids here are going to be greater than the joys in Heaven/eternity even though Scripture plainly indicates that the pleasures, joys, etc. in eternity are beyond our imagination??? Puzzling perspective.
BTW, some would wager that "personality" is a fiercely provocative thing to you . . . virtually a brittle, sensitive thing to you. If that's so and I'm missing something, I'm happy to be enlightened. Not trying to step on sore toes.
I just happen to feel that Father has given me an insight on it with great fierceness and intensity and that I dare not be silent about it.
Wonderful passages.
Thx.
Oh, absolutely. I was even at home in Tokyo, with the Divine Liturgy in Japanese. If you know the Liturgy, it makes no difference what language it is in. The fixed part of the service is the same. The homily...that was another story. ごめんんあさい。わかりません :)
But your observation is ritgh on target, Kolo. Despite all the differences and dissimilar outward expressions, there is much less variation between us then, say Latins and Melkites.
Sometimes, I really think we speak past each other. I never said anything like what you suggest I think. To the contrary, we will not be burdened with our 'self', and therefore much more able to give than to take.
BTW, some would wager that "personality" is a fiercely provocative thing to you . . . virtually a brittle, sensitive thing to you. If that's so and I'm missing something, I'm happy to be enlightened. Not trying to step on sore toes
LOL!!! You better stick with theology; psychoanalysis may not be your talent. It has nothing to do with me, personally. Dying unto onself is the backbone of Christianity, the one gathered in the Church that is.
The Gospels send a clear message: "he who therefore will humble himself as this little child, he is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." [St. Mat 18:4] and "whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." [23:12]
I liken it to red being mixed into white. No matter how much white is added, it'll never be more than another shade of pink. The only way we can be white again (recover from the fall and go home where we belong) is to be born again.
The Scriptures reveal God truly but not fully.
What will happen in the millenium of Christ's reign on earth - and what will happen in the new heaven and earth - is not written. Perhaps then when God says we will judge angels, He is speaking to these frames wherein little is revealed?
I'm sure we couldn't imagine everything He has prepared for us!
Truly, when we abide in Him and He in use (John 15) - the Spirit brings forth fruit for the Father. And those fruits are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. (Gal 5)
And that's in this heaven and earth! How wonderful it will be in the next!
OK, I think I get it better now, thanks. Dogmas cannot be modified, and doctrines can, provided they don't contradict any dogmas and have been accepted by the Church. I have a memory from the L&E thread of needing to be careful of whether I called something a doctrine or a dogma, but I can't remember the context. I think I was speaking with a Catholic at the time. Perhaps it was about the celibacy of priests issue, but I can't remember. Oh well, I know now that you treat accepted doctrines as authority.
SEEKING a clarification . . .
RE what I understand were travels in The Spirit in a 'spiritual realm' with your sister whose already graduated from this life:
Is it your belief that:
prior to the sailing around the spiritual realm with you siser, she was without personality in some sort IDENTITYLESS amorphus mass of . . . how to put it . . .
GOD+ ???
And that in order to sail around with you, she somehow was reconstituted from that homoginized amorphus mass of GOD+
INTO a what . . . HISTORICAL verson of your sister?
or a HISTORICAL VERSION plus what???
Or???
And that AFTER your sailing around with "her" (I guess), "she" returned to the IDENTITYLESS, personality-less amorphus mass of GOD+ ???
I'm really trying to understand your construction on that 'reality.'
That THERE I can agree with! That's why I wanted to back off. This conversation needs a reboot. Too much litter in RAM.
Yeah dying to self, taking up cross daily,. Yeah a kind of Pauline mysticism in which, through Baptism (understood as an act of God, not a bizarre ritual lustration) in which our fallen tendency to death is consummated and our life is hid with Christ and we are revivified with the gift of the Spirit of Christ, so that "now I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me" (and so the whole goal of Christian askesis could be understood as cultivating the consciousness of the truth about the death of the self in Christ. ALL that gets a big affirmative Yassuh with sprinkles AND marshmallow topping!
So one way to phrase the question I have is, so how come The body is resurrected if they ain't no self after all that. What I need a body for If I have died to self.
Or, just so you guys KNOW I spent some time with the Zennies, If -> I <- died to self, then who is writing this nonsense?
It fascinates me how many of my "Comrades of the Co-op" whose "working names" are all country, end up being named after saints. Just down the road from me is B.L., the manager of the next door bazillion acre cattle farm. If it ever occurred to BL to go to church of a Sunday it would be to the Babdiss Church. But he is actually Bernard Louis (sure of the Bernard, not of the Louis). Now that's as Catholic a name as ou could wish for.
In related news, a priest told me what some 35-40 years ago when he had a chapel in a pick-up and was sent out to the highways and byways, he was WAY up in the holler. And some snaggle toothed denizen of the hills went and produced a rosary and said to him, "Whut's this here?" So he told him and showed him what to do with it.
And the guy began to cry and said that it had been in his family since ever who knows when but at least one "great" was inserted before "granmaw" and that they had been told that one day a priest would come and show them what it was.
Now I have to insert the caution that I love this particular priest so much that in his praise I'd like to say that some of the stuff he remembers actually happened. But there it is. And when you put it with the high incidence of fine old Catholic names way up in the holler, I don't think it's so incredible.
"And when you put it with the high incidence of fine old Catholic names way up in the holler, I don't think it's so incredible."
Ah, well, you see, there is an explanation for that. These people are the descendants of the "Lost Tribe of County Kerry" which traveled to America with +Brendan and his monks in carraghs back in the early 7th century. Of course they took their rosaries with them and for many centuries used them for prayer. Eventually they only employed them by placing them on a windowsill the day before a wedding to assure a good, sunny day for Betty Sue's nuptials but even that practice died out.
This "Lost Tribe" was actually made up of ethnic Greeks who, many centuries before, had been blown off course on a trading mission to Britain and were cast up on Erin's fair shore. If you see that priest again, I suspect he'll confirm that that fellow he spoke to didn't actually say a "priest" would come, but rather that the arrival of the "pappas" was foretold! :)
That is, however, the final station, not something happening here and now. That's why we will be given new bodies to clothe the soul before we exist the train. Our souls will be judged and either forgiven (cleansed) or rejected (condemned) based on what we have done.
With cleansed souls and new bodies we will be born, again, in the world to come!
The Protestant notion that this is all taken care of here and now is appealing, and assuring, but sadly mistaken.
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