Catholic and Protestant Bibles: What is the Difference?

Catholic Exchange.com ^ | 02-06-07 | Mary Harwell Sayler

[xzins]

So leading someone to compile the records of eyewitnesses affirmed by the Jerusalem Christian community is something beyond the ability of the Lord?

I don't 'spose you'd care to review the Kings and Chronicles and their likely method of compilation?

So far as other events are concerned, we are certain that entire libraries from that era have disappeared. Not to mention Alexandria, little ole Qumran should teach us that. To claim records did not exist is to claim perfect knowledge in the present of what transpired 2000 years ago.

7Q5 has not been disposed of. It is still a viable theory presented by whoever that priest was. Additionally, no one has even begun to seek for

While much of the speculation about the document known as Q (from German "quelle" for "source") is liberal and unworthy of note, the idea of a pre-gospel source is supported by Luke.

Udo Schnelle writes about the dating of Q (op. cit., p. 186):

The Sayings Source was composed before the destruction of the temple, since the sayings against Jerusalem and the temple in Luke 13.34-35Q do not presuppose any military events. A more precise determination of the time of composition must remain hypothetical, but a few indications point to the period between 40 and 50 CE: (1) Bearers of the sayings tradition, which possibly extends all the way back to pre-Easter times, included both wandering preachers of the Jesus movement as well as local congregations. Thus the conditions in which the Sayings Source originated included both continuity with the beginnings and with the developing congregational structures across the region. (2) The Sayings Source presupposes persection of the young congregations by Palestinian Jews (cf. Luke 6.22-23 Q; Luke 11.49-51 Q; Luke 12.4-5 Q; 12.11-12 Q). About 50 CE Paul mentions in 1 Thess. 2.14-16 a persecution of Christians in Judea that had already taken place. The execution of James the son of Zebedee by Agrippa I (cf. Acts 12.2) occurred around 44 CE. (3) The positive references to Gentiles in Q (cf. Luke 10.13-15Q; Luke 11.29-31Q; Matt. 8.5-13 Q; Matt. 5.47 Q; Matt. 22.1-10 Q) indicate that the Gentile mission had begun, which is probably to be located in the period between 40 and 50 CE.

[kosta50]

So leading someone to compile the records of eyewitnesses affirmed by the Jerusalem Christian community is something beyond the ability of the Lord?

That must be the reason for Matthew's mistaken reference to Jeremiah vs. Zechariah (Matthew 27:9-10)?

7Q5 has not been disposed of. It is still a viable theory...

I guess we all believe and select "evidence" that suits us. "Viable" theories exist in absence of any real proof. Yet we speak of these theories as "facts." And when all else fails, we pull the universal 'get out of jail card' clause: guided by the Holy Spirit. Think how many times has this divine name been used in vain!

[kawaii]

frankly in as much as i find protestant beleifs to be wolves' corruption of God's word, and a rejection of God's will (with intent to convince others to do the same), i think i put things quite plainly.

[wmfights]

Thast makes us robots, which is my point about the Protestant mindset to begin with.

FWIW, if I only have the choice of either being a robot under GOD'S control, or a robot under a church's control I will take being controlled by GOD any day.

[ScubieNuc]

I reject robotoic obedience to something that was obviously havily tainted with human fancy, agendas, and errors. If we had the originals, that would be a different story.

I know Quix pointed this out earlier, but that is funny coming from a Catholic. You see the Scriptures tainted with human fancy, but not the oral traditions that you base your worship on.

I realize that I jumped into this discussion late, so I may be missing some key arguments. I find it amazing for anyone who has ever played "telephone" to place more faith in oral traditions over the written word that strengthened the first Christians.

Without the Scriptures as the base for our beliefs, then you have to rely on man's (even if it's a group of men over time) intuition. Man's idea's of what is right changes with time.

You may feel fine with standing before God and saying something like, "I didn't believe the earliest writings (Scripture) were good enough to base all my beliefs in. Rather, I found that writings hundreds of years later, that were passed down orally, were better." I certainly won't go that route.

Sincerely

[ScubieNuc]

FWIW, if I only have the choice of either being a robot under GOD'S control, or a robot under a church's control I will take being controlled by GOD any day.

Amen. Although, I think kosta50's illustration of a robot is not a good analogy. A robot only does what it is programed to do. It can't choose right or wrong. (Wrong would be something against it's programing.) The ability we have to choose between God's Holy program or our own, is a HUGE difference.

I also believe that somewhere in our freedom to choose God, that God gets the greatest joy. I am reminded of that whenever my kids do what is right, not because I am standing over them commanding it, but because they have chosen to do it themselves.

Sincerely

[Quix]

I reject robotoic obedience to something that was obviously havily tainted with human fancy, agendas, and errors. If we had the originals, that would be a different story.

Perhaps I'm beginning to get a glimmer of something.

Earnest efforts at faithful obedience to Scriptures God has clearly protected SUFFICIENTLY for our fruitful edification is slavish mindless robotism.

But rote, lock-step, often obviously very slavish and mindless unquestioning robotism . . . reading preprinted magicsterical prayers, preprinted, predigested everything-- IN THE SERVICE OF THE MAGICSTERICAL and TRADITIONS OF MEN is pretty good alright--even elevated holy and super righteous compared to those evil idiot mindless robot Protesties.

ROTFLOL BLTTM [Belly Laugh To The Max] FOMCLOL [Falling Off My Chair Laughing Out Loud] ROTFLMHO [Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Head Off] ITTM [Incredulous To The Max] GTTM [Guffaws To The Max] SHSMEACAB [Shaking Head So Much Ears Are Creating A Breeze] SHSMIHCBFMLN [Shaking Head So Much I Have Cheek Bruises From My Long Nose]

Sometimes, it seems like the MAGICSTERICAL has destroyed all it's mirrors and erased the whole notion of personal insight from it's rubber dictionary and from it's experience. Then it's rushed out and mind melded that reality on all the serfs. Amazing. Yet the Protesties are the robots. GTTM! SHSMIHCBFMLN

I thought parochial schools taught logical thinking. Maybe they gave it up for lent. LOL.

Sigh.

[Quix]

I will take being controlled by GOD any day.
= = =

INDEED.

But what happened to this notion of Christ dying that we might have more FREEDOM vs the MINDLESS SLAVERY OF SIN! ????

Mind boggling. Evidently the Orthodox et al rarely to never have very intense dialogues with God Almighty, Son, Spirit. And thoughtfulness about the topic seems to only engender more silly statements vs insights into reality. Mind Boggling. Hard to fathom.

[Alamo-Girl]

In my view, it doesn’t matter whether we strive to retain our personalities or whether we strive to become transparent in Him. He accepts us either way.

I do see God as the master artist who doesn’t mix all the colors on His palette into one, but rather uses each color in contrast to the other to create His living masterpiece.

But with regard to New Jerusalem foundation gemstones not including a diamond (clarity) - the bottom foundation gemstone is Jasper which is green or clear. And the clear Jasper is the variety of Jasper being spoken of in Revelation. The Jasper is also used in Revelation 4:3 to describe the Throne of God:

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; - Rev 21:10-11

And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. – Rev 4:3

BTW, the Sardine stone is blood red

New Jerusalem itself – including its streets are pure gold, like clear glass according to Revelation 21.

From all of these, my leading in the Spirit is that striving to be transparent in Him is ok, too. And I will continue to do so.

An interesting link to colors and how they are used in marketing, i.e. the emotions they bright out in us: Color Wheel Pro - See Color Theory in Action

[wmfights]

Evidently the Orthodox et al rarely to never have very intense dialogues with God Almighty, Son, Spirit.

I have always thought of church in terms as a place for worship, fellowship with other believers, a source to grow and understand. I have never thought of church as a filter for my contact with God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit. I think this is probably the source of the big disconnect between most Christian Sects and the RC's and EO.

[Quix]

From all of these, my leading in the Spirit is that striving to be transparent in Him is ok, too. And I will continue to do so.
= = =

Wouldn't want to hinder or detour you from anything Holy Spirit impressed on you as worthwhile! Goodness!

And, I actually have some affinity for that perspective myself.

It's just that in the current discussion . . . the robot thing seems to have carried it to an absurd length--TO ME.

And, FOR ME, to an unBiblical length. Christ Died for us to have MORE FREEDOM IN HIM . . . from the slavery of sin . . . NOT less freedom IN HIM with NO personality and NO choices as personalities.

imho, of course.

[Quix]

BTW, Thanks for the color link.

In terms of striving . . . has been a PROBLEM much of my life. Seems to me, Most of Scripture--at least NT-wise--exhorts AGAINST striving.

Maybe it's a tricky concept.

Then again, maybe we just aren't to do it, period. "Let Go and Let God"

But how do we "Let Go and Let God" and still be responsible for what we are responsible for and NOT strive?

[Quix]

I have always thought of church in terms as a place for worship, fellowship with other believers, a source to grow and understand. I have never thought of church as a filter for my contact with God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit. I think this is probably the source of the big disconnect between most Christian Sects and the RC's and EO.
= = =

INDEED. Likely so.

I agree wholeheartedly. Church at best facilitates intimacy with God. When it has attempted to filter--it's always been abusive, imho. And, God has NOT been at all pleased.

God wants . . . Christ died that we might each individually have INTIMACY WITH DADDY.

Or in another Biblical analogy of Christ's Love for the Church . . . His Body . . .

Who wants the magisterical in the honey moon bed???

[kawaii]

have you ever BEEN to an orthodox church?

ours has a 2 hour 'coffee hour'.

i think your allegations of 'filtering' and 'lack of fellowship' are frankly made up.

[kawaii]

interestingly Christ asserted that the only way to the father was through the son and that the church was the body of Christ.

seems to me that your 'go directly to God' ideology has no basis in scripture.

[wmfights]

i think your allegations of 'filtering' and 'lack of fellowship' are frankly made up.

I imagine you do.

Don't you folks believe that communion imparts Grace and without the "proper" church serving communion you will lose Grace?

Don't you folks believe Baptism by the "proper" church is essential for salvation?

[Forest Keeper]

There is nothing "vile, horribly inaccurate" in asserting that if my 'thoughts and desires' are under someone else's 'guidance and will' I will be but someone else's robot.

It sounds like your or the Orthodox view (or both) is that any individual book of the Bible could be riddled with error, but that the Bible taken as a whole is nevertheless still "God's inspired word". Is that right? If so, then I don't understand what your definition of "inspired" is? Would it be on the same level as a nonthreatening suggestion by God as to what to write, or is it more like the writers' "inspiration" really just came from their own memories, as best as they could recall? (That is, that God did not especially "touch" any of the writers specifically by miracle in what they wrote.)

IOW, if the writers' thoughts were only their own, and God was not working through them via miracle, which is the only way to not be under God's guidance and will, then the Bible MUST contain error. It would follow then that God never works through any of us because that would be an assault on our free wills and we would be robots. What is your view of the concept of "God working through us"?

[kawaii]

well considering as anyone baptised in the name of the father son and holy spirit can be chrismated (which a sacrement where the Holy Spirit seals the baptism) into the church rather than rebaptised i'd say you're second allegation is just strange.

also seeing as we do not beleive that the priest personally changes the eucharist but rather God does it seems rather less dependant on the priest that on God.

[kawaii]

i would say that the purpose of the Church Christ established is to articulate the truth with regard to potential linguistic vagarities in the text of scripture.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Earnest efforts at faithful obedience to Scriptures God has clearly protected SUFFICIENTLY for our fruitful edification.

Amen. This is the heart of Sola Scriptura and the basis for our Christian confidence in His word -- we trust that it is the Holy Spirit who gives knowledge and wisdom and brings light to our darkness.

"For by the Scripture as our guide and teacher, God not only makes those things plain which would otherwise escape our notice, but almost compels us to behold them; as if he had assisted our dull sight with spectacles." -- JOHN CALVIN "Commentary on Genesis" Vol. I

"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth" -- Colossians 1:5-6

Saved by faith in Jesus Christ, which comes by hearing the word of God, according to the will of God, for the glory of God.