What about polygraph tests?
Posted on 02/27/2007 10:29:55 AM PST by Gamecock
HOUSTON, Feb. 24 (UPI) -- A metal baking sheet from a Houston elementary school has become an object of veneration for hundreds of Catholics who see an image of the Virgin Mary.
The pan bearing what many believe is a miraculous religions image is now on display in the yard of Sylvia Calderon, a member of the PTA at Pugh Elementary School, the Houston Chronicle reported. Calderon gave the baking sheet a home after officials at the school said they could not accommodate the crowds who wanted to see it.
Guadalupe Rodriguez, a cafeteria worker at the school, discovered the image on Ash Wednesday as she cleaned off baking trays. She showed it to other workers who agreed that they saw the Virgin.
By Thursday, word of the find had gotten around and visitors started arriving at the cafeteria in droves. The pan was moved to Calderon's house.
School officials also believe it is a miracle, even though they can't accommodate it.
"I think someone was watching over us," said Lyda Guerrero, Pugh's principal. "I think someone is watching over this community and this school district and this school."
I used to think that Rorschach Tests were totally bogus.
Now I'm not so sure ...
The 2 worst elements in my opinion is that it brings derision on the name of Christ and it makes an object a focus instead of God.
I sure as hell see a Duezie as more lovable!
I gathered as much. They are both man made objects. One has more value than the other...but if I needed to bake something the Duezie is of less use except to drive to the store to buy a baking sheet.
So, should they and we stop seeking the Ark because it's "just an object"?
It makes no difference to me or my faith rather they seek and/or locate the Ark or not.
You still don't get about the rose, nor the Ark. I said ACTUALLY GIVEN a rose - not just something you see on a walk or in the store. I should've mentioned getting a baking sheet from God, maybe via the sky. Geesh!
I understood what you were saying...and I said you were begging the question. So how would you know the rose was ACTUALLY given to you? I doubt you're suggesting that God shows up in person and handed over the baking sheet. The smudge on the baking sheet was found...just as if you found a rose in the garden while you were walking...except that at least a rose is something made by God, whereas a baking sheet is a man-made object and a smudge is a bit of residue left over from baking. If one were to say that they gave thanks to God for the bread that was baked on the sheet I would have no objections, of course.
Simple explanation - your photo was roughly same color as the baking sheet shown in Gamecock's earlier photo. No one expected you to introduce the "Face On Mars" into this topic, at least not out of the blue like that. Now me, they would have expected this from (and they would have been right).
Ah, now I see where you are coming from. You are suggesting the value is dependent upon the viewers interpretation. So if you're walking down a trail and see 2 rocks next to each other and decide it's a sign and take the wrong trail you are actually on the right trail because to you 2 rocks next to each other is a sign. I submit that a sign is an intentional indicator independent of what a viewer may decide. What I"m saying is, a sign is purposeful...it is put someplace to signify something such as a direction. It is obvious or it won't be seen as a sign.
"if this is a sign from God, then doesn't it seem irrational to dismiss it?"
The best God can do is a smudge on a baking pan? Sometimes a smudge really is just a smudge. Even if you want to apply some value to the smudge it is still just a smudge. Even if you thank God a smudge is still a smudge. The end does not justify the means.
"Just say it WAS given" (much like your "just say it is a smudge for consideration"...), so that to the person it was OBVIOUS it came to him no other way.
Of course in this case we know the pork-chop shadow was simply found. But even then, what if something happened simultaneously that made the person who "found" it think it truly was a sign?
I thank God for not even letting my parents' Lincoln get a ding when I spun out on a snow-covered highway bridge - but I have no evidence He did anything. I just believe. What's the big deal? That may not be material that I can show anyone at all, but it IS an event, "venerated" by me in the same way some people look for miracles in things that are material objects. But then perhaps mere events in time, never replicable, are better than mere material objects.
We think some things were from God. So what is so terrible?
Should such people just throw the object away, when they believe they have something from God? Wouldn't that be an insult to God if it really were so? Maybe not, because He is merciful and understanding, but the point remains.
Does God ever do anything miraculous (i.e., beyond His normal nature) in your world? If so, is it so terrible to commemorate it somehow?
I find that fact very interesting.
Why is that? It shouldn't be surprising. We believe that both pictures have identical values as images of Mary. My understanding is that Catholics believe that some of these images are real and some are not, depending on the ruling of the Church. If so, then on what does the Church base her decision if no one knows what she looked like?
What about polygraph tests?
Why do you even wonder about this? With all the other "Goofy" stuff that emanates from Rome, this is probably the most sensible!
But that's not the case, now is it? I doubt you can honestly say that after using a baking sheet that there is never any residue whatsoever on any occasion. In fact, there is probably residue and smudges almost every-time one uses a baking pan. So how can someone honestly say there was no other way for a smudge to occur on this baking pan other than divine intervention?
Does God ever do anything miraculous (i.e., beyond His normal nature) in your world? If so, is it so terrible to commemorate it somehow?
Yes, I've seen and experienced God working beyond normal, ambient life. Passover is a celebration/commemoration of such an event, so I take no exception with commemorating a REAL act of God.
Do you understand that your position is essentially, well, it could be something God did so it should be venerated (a term utilized in regard to saints and Mary in catholicism). Do you see this baking sheet on the same level as Mary? At least the bible says Mary was blessed among women. I can respect and appreciate her...a baking sheet is a baking sheet.
But is she crying and/or bleeding? Big money!
I have plenty of issues with elements of catholicism. I am honestly not trying to bash anyone...I'm desperately asking if there is no catholic who can possibly grasp why this is irrational. So far all I've seen is defenses of it with no indication that any catholic can even grasp why it might be doubted and therefore off base.
It isn't only Catholic saints. But that's the only stuff that gets people excited enough to make a shrine, or greedy enough to charge admission. I've "seen" all kinds of people's faces in random objects, but if I get a cookie that kind of looks like Frank Zappa I say "huh, that looks like Frank Zappa", then I might show my wife or somebody else near by, then I'll eat since that was the whole point to my grabbing a cookie in the first place.
That's why we call it "Goofy".
I am honestly not trying to bash anyone.
It's not bashing.....it's called....."Calling it as you see it!" It's just simply "Goofy"!
It's a pity this woman didn't give more thought to this. Had she convinced an innocent little girl to claim that Mary materialized as the cafeteria marm, and had personally handed her the tray along with an innocuous greeting for all people, perhaps she could have gotten the RCC to build a shrine at the school.
Dang, she's really been getting around lately.
I'm not a Catholic. Although I was raised by a mother who was converted to Catholicism as a teenager - yes, through her nuns at high school.
She was Lutheran, and now I am. As it turns out, my grandmother was Catholic, but she suppressed it for her Lutheran husband. (Mom didn't know until she said she wanted to convert to Catholicism.)
So, I do have Catholic sympathies, but I am not part of it.
I, too, have much sympathy for Catholics... and Mormons, and Jehovah Witnesses, and Muslims, and...
LOL!!! I often wonder how they know what she looked like? I see above where they have a picture. ;O)
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