[Salvation]

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The Novus Ordo vs. the Old Mass

[Salvation]

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[Knitting A Conundrum]

You can do a very devout Novus Ordo mass...but it is true that so much of the sense of the sacred is weak, particularly with the crop of middle-aged priests aiding and abetting the flakiness...

I haven't been to a Tridentine mass since I was about 6, and that as a visitor long before I was catholic, but they need to act before Latin is totally lost as a liturgical language, with fewer and fewer people around who could say the mass without having to learn Latin from scratch...

If people could see what true reverence looks like, they would be attracted! We want that, there's a hole in the psyche that wants the transcendent moment where we can look up to God, something so often missing with the wreckovators have done with all the liturgical committee silliness and sometimes outright heresy...I know of two churches in this town I won't go near to on Easter unless out of dire necessity because of "liturgical movement" performances.

I mean, I know I'm not the only person who's ever had to go to confession because of uncharitable thoughts about the music or other thing that should have been something that lifted me closer to God instead of causing me to sin...

/rant off

I dedicated my prayer and fasting this Lent to the clergy and bishop in my diocese because of that, seeing maybe I got led here just for that sort of thing...but another one of my prayers is, Lord, if the Holy Father is going to do this, please let it be soon!

[Ciexyz]

Bump for faith. The Bishop of the Pittsburgh Diocese allows one church in this area to give the old mass.

[LisaFab]

Deo gratias. Let it be so.

[old republic]

When the Council of Trent was convened in 1545 there were so many variations and corruptions in the mass across the Church that the Council decided to root out the tendencies of local churches to make innovations om the mass (which often led to heresy) by allowing only those forms of the mass which were in use more than two hundred years when the council convened. The result was one mass that unified the entire church.

The Second Vatican Council is often blamed for the Novus Ordo, but in reality most of the controversy was not caused by the Council as many claim. The real controversy was that Paul VI and the parts of the Curia implemented something completely different than what the Council Fathers intended. The Council's decree did not order the Church to rewrite the mass and introduce the vernacular. The decrees only allowed for the vernacular in "certain prayers", not in the entire mass. In fact, the Council actually orders Latin to be maintained in the Roman Rite of the Church. The council likely would have condemned the actions taken following the council. The council did NOT order the end of communion rails, the end of Gregorian Chant, the destruction of altars, the priest to face the people in mass, the Tabernacle to be removed from the Center of the Altar, the reception of Communion in the hand, and many other things which were implemented in the name of the "Spirit of Vatican II" even when it is clear that these things are not in alignment with what the Council was trying to do. If the Council Father's had attempted to impose these things including the Novus Ordo while the Council was in session, it is very likely that the Bishops would never have signed the decree. However, it is likely that many of the Bishops had something more like the transitional Tridentine Mass used Tridentine Mass used between the Council and Novus Ordo.

[Mad Dawg]

There's part of me, as a convert, which has this attitude: I was drowning. Along came this boat and people pulled me out of the water, dried me off, gave me bread to eat and wine to drink, and oil for my wounds. And when I got better, I noticed the crew were all arguing and complaining about the rigging! Bizarre! You guys carry on; I think I'll go thank the Captain (and see if He's got any more food ...)

On the other hand, I really do get it. It's not worship in the vernacular. Especially when it comes to the NAB it's worship in English as a second language! or maybe a third language! The people who translated the Almost Sacrifice of Isaac story should be forced to listen to Hamlet translated and then recited by a cast consisting of people from the West Virginia hills, the Alabama hills, and Brooklyn. Yeah, and Australia.

On the third hand, our fabulous parish which is currently enjoying a wonderful conjunction of Dominicans is sneaking more and more Latin into the NO every Sunday. About a month or 6 weeks ago I said to the Pastor in mock consternation, "Father, it seems to me you are anticipating a rumored motu proprio from the Holy See."

He gave an excellent imitation of a cat who swallowed the canary,looked heavenwards and said, "I'm just trying to think with the mind of the Church ..."

And we both cracked up.

---

[markomalley]

Anybody who says that the Novus Ordo cannot be reverent has not seen a Mass from the Shrine in DC...or from St. Peter's in Rome.

The only thing I have against the Novus Ordo is that the custom (not a mandatory requirement, btw) is universally to celebrate the Liturgy of the Eucharist ad populum. That, imho, is the source of many of the problems. The celebratnt, in facing the faithful, can fall prey to the temptation to put on a pious show for the faithful, rather than re-presenting the sacrifice and offering it to the Father WITH the people.

BTW, my 13-year old daughter drags me down to St. Mary Mother of God for the 9 AM Mass as many Sundays as possible. She LOVES the Tridentine Mass. (Such a horrible position for a father to be in!!!)

[NYer]

The Novus Ordo vs. the Old Mass

I don't believe it is one vs another so much as the abuse by those who believe it is okay to 'experiment' with the liturgy. When we go to Church to worship God, we do so with an expectation built on previous experiences. Yet how many of us, 40 years after VCII, are still subjected to 'tinkering', by the liturgists. Hence the Mass this week may contain (or be missing) elements that were not there previously. This leads to confusion.

A 'fixed' liturgy, such as the Tridentine, can be afflicted with problems, as well. There are prayes in the Latin Mass that begin but lack the sequential aspect. It was 'these' problems that those attending VCII anticipated would be addressed. To do so, the liturgy frozen in time, would have to be opened for those changes to be implemented.

Our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, has recognized the need to call our attention to the purpose of the Mass. He hones in on it with these words:

Pope Benedict has argued that the profound root of the ecclesial crisis of our time is liturgical, that the crisis of the sense of the sacred, the crisis in the sense of God's presence, which has characterized our time, is a liturgical crisis.

I've seen some Novus Ordo Masses that were celebrated with great reverence and some Latin Masses that were hurriedly rushed and mumbled so that one could not understand, much less 'celebrate' the liturgy. Regardless of Novus Ordo or Latin Mass, the most necessary element is to restore the sense of Sacred.

Liturgy is the pivotal moment in our lives when we "meet" with God. Both the celebrant and congregation should approach Him with great reverence, regardless of which liturgy is celebrated. As my pastor often points out, "same faith, different flavor".

[Bigg Red]

God bless and keep B16!

[steadfastconservative]

I don't understand why it has to be either the Novus Ordo or the Old Mass. Why can't it be both? After all, that is what the universal indult would do: it would permit both forms of the rite to co-exist.

[narses]

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[Steve0113]

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Very interesting read.

[Suzy Quzy]

Good grief.....how did it get so tight around here that a discussion of the Latin Mass has to have a Moderator? I'm not even sure what a Catholic Caucus in the title means also....can you explain?

I go to both types of Masses, and I am not sure that I prefer the Latin Mass....it seems a little "colder".....I WISH THEY COULD TAKE THE GREAT PARTS OF BOTH OF THEM!