Posted on 01/29/2007 6:45:51 AM PST by stfassisi
The world is a very strange place.
Gotta go away, for a while.
"And so we see the crux of the reason for the RCC's addition of the Apocrypha to their bible. If it ain't in Scripture, add more text.
As far as the concept of Gehenna and Hell being the same place. Prior to the revelation of God's plan of salvation through the sacrifice of His Son, it is not likely that anyone would have a separate concept of the two."
Uh, Hoss, 2 Maccabbees was written about 150 years BEFORE Jesus, so far from being "not likely" that there would be a separate concept of the two, as you suggested, the Jews actually had a pretty clear understanding of atonement for sins in Gehinnom, with prayers for the dead helpful for their atonement and eventually release to Gan Eden. Jesus said "Gehenna". He didn't say "Hell". He didn't say "Purgatory". He said "Gehenna". Want to know what Gehenna MEANS? Ask the Jews, of our time, or even long before Jesus' time, as they wrote in 2 Maccabbees.
Jesus always corrected the Scripture tradition and other Jewish tradition when it needed correcting. He just used Gehenna flat, plain, just like that.
I note here that the CATHOLICS are arguing with me, as I said they would, because I am saying that all of the wedding cakes of logic built up in the middle ages about Purgatory versus Hell, etc., are all unneccessary embellishments: Jesus said Purgatory IS Hell, with just that one word: Gehenna.
And I note the Protestants, like you, are coming out of your chairs because your own traditions say that Purgatory is unneccessary, and it's bloody inconvenient to have Jesus talking about Purgatory (Gehenna) and Hell, and not making the distinction you make in your tradition, which is that hell is forever, but there is no Purgatory at all, and all you have to do is believe in Jesus. Jesus said no such thing. Jesus gave the two commandments and told people to DO, and NOT DO, a lot of things in the love and service of each other. He said that the failure to do these things would get you tossed into Gehenna.
What does this mean?
The Christian who commits adultery - which Jesus said not to do or you'll get tossed into Gehenna - are we to believe, based on Protestant tradition, that Jesus didn't MEAN IT when he said that if you commit adultery you go to Gehenna? That by being crucified and dying nastily and bloodily that was it, the Christian's forgiven and goes to heaven, period, even if he defies Jesus and does all those things that Jesus said not to do or you get thrown into Gehenna?
That is completely preposterous.
AMEN!!!
I think it's more along the lines of repeating the same lies long enough that Catholics eventually get tired of responding to their misstatements.
"Hitler, Mussolini, and Saddam Hussein will be pleased to learn this!"
Perhaps.
That is not for us to know in this life.
Paul was a murderer too, remember.
So was Moses.
Sounds like he was a prudent business man... Cash and Carry.
If you go into the "religion for sale" business, you have to make sure you get the most for the least. Why should he have tied up a limited resource without some surety?
the RCC could do well with more men like this one!
I remember when it was under a buck! Dang that inflation!
*Me too.
INNOCENT IV 1243-1254
"Sub Catholicae" to the Bishop of Tusculum,....
23. Finally, since Truth in the Gospel asserts that "if anyone shall utter blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, neither in this life nor in the future will it be forgiven him" [cf. Matt. 12:32], by this it is granted that certain sins of the present be understood which, however, are forgiven in the future life, and since the Apostle says that "fire will test the work of each one, of what kind it is," and " if any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire" [ 1 Cor 3:13,15], and since these same Greeks truly and undoubtedly are said to believe and to affirm that the souls of those who after a penance has been received yet not performed, or who, without mortal sin yet die with venial and slight sin, can be cleansed after death and can be helped by the suffrages of the Church, we, since they say a place of purgation of this kind has not been indicated to them with a certain and proper name by their teachers, we indeed, calling it purgatory according to the traditions and authority of the Holy Fathers, wish that in the future it be called by that name in their area. For in that transitory fire certainly sins, though not criminal or capital, which before have not been remitted through penance but were small and minor sins, are cleansed, and these weigh heavily even after death, if they have been forgiven in this life.
*Huh. Imagine that. The Church's Teaching IS more understandable than yours. And, it has the advantage of being authoritative...
"Pick up the Bible and read it. It's all there."
All Paul, all the time.
No Jesus in your list.
Read Paul in light of, and limited by Jesus.
The way you are using those passages from Paul, you are overriding Jesus (and James) by Paul.
Pick up YOUR Bible and read the Gospels.
Read all of those DO's and DON'Ts of Jesus.
Are we to presume that he meant "For the next few weeks. And then, after that, I'll be dead and you don't have to worry about all of these moral rules and charitable acts I've been harping on for two years, because that won't REALLY matter then, all y'all hafta do is BELIEVE!"
Not what Jesus said.
Can't be what Paul meant, either, in light of what Jesus said.
We have a Bible conflict here.
Paul really does seem to be saying precisely your doctrine.
Jesus is saying precisely my doctrine.
So, who do we follow, Saul of Tarsus, or the Son of God, hmmmmm....think, think, think...
I wouldn't know about the "religion for sale" business ... the Catholic Church isn't in it. You'll have to look elsewhere if you want to buy yourself an stairway to heaven.
*LOL I am saying your opinion of Christian Doctrine as explicated by the Catholic Church is flat out laugh out loud funny.
As a Catholic, I'll take the Church and let you take the cake :)
The Holy Gospel According to St. Matthew is a really GREAT place to start.
Might it not be possible that Jesus was referring to the then-current (pre-cross) place of Gehenna where people existed in either paradise (aka Abraham's bossom) or a place of torment?
However you slice or dice it. There is not evidence that the place of torment is temporary. The exception to this is a parable (fictional story) that the Lord used to demonstrate an unrelated point.
NO SCRIPTURE, NO ARGUMENT!
"...so how does your reference to Judas praying for idol worshiping soldiers who were killed for their sin, prove you point?"
Let's be clear here, my point is PROVEN by Jesus himself. Jesus said "Gehenna", which means Purgatory AND Hell, same place. It is reinforced by the parable Jesus told of the cruel lender, how he was handed over to the torturers UNTIL every last penny was paid. That is nasty, but there is a temporal duration, and the payment of the debt is exacted in this way, the hard way. The easy way was to do as Jesus put in the prayer: "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors".
And indeed, Jesus TOLD US the standard of our own judgment. He said we will be judged by the standard by which we judge. That's God speaking there. So, if you're poring through the book trying to find a standard of sacrifice or a standard of automatic atonement, you may as well stop. Jesus told you the standard for your judgment: as you have judged, by the standards you have judged, so shall you be judged. And "Our Father...forgive us our debts as [i.e. "in the measure that"] we forgive our debtors..."
Jesus told us all of that.
On what authority do we disregard him?
Paul's?
Not very wise. The servant is not greater than the master. Whatever Paul meant, it can't override Jesus.
In the specific instance, the wearers of the amulets were not stoned. They died in battle, and the Bible tells us it was for that sin. So, they lost their lives for it. The question then was: how terrible should their punishment of purification be in Genhinnom? And Judas Maccabaeus and his followers made sacrifices which were accounted righteous in order to atone for the sins of the dead.
What this demonstrates is that the dead are not destroyed. Their souls go on. And that the sins they committed in their lives go with them into the afterlife. It further demonstrates that the prayers of the living are helpful for the dead.
This all part of the Catholic doctrine.
And this is where it comes from: the Bible.
Is this the Innocent that orchestrated the killings of millions non-catholics throughout the world? Or was that a different one?
Dadgummit!!! I'm going back to my parish priest and demand a refund!
Next time, do a little research ...
Well, I think that's progress. There is no more faithful saint than Paul.
Pick up YOUR Bible and read the Gospels.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." -- John 17:2-10"As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
We do "charitable acts" because they bring glory to His name. They are the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit. They are not payment for salvation. Nothing can earn God's mercy. It is freely given according to His good pleausure. The incorrect understanding of Christ's one-time, eternal, perfect and complete justification of His sheep is at the heart of Rome's error.
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." -- Hebrews 9:24-28"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.