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To: blue-duncan

"...so how does your reference to Judas praying for idol worshiping soldiers who were killed for their sin, prove you point?"

Let's be clear here, my point is PROVEN by Jesus himself. Jesus said "Gehenna", which means Purgatory AND Hell, same place. It is reinforced by the parable Jesus told of the cruel lender, how he was handed over to the torturers UNTIL every last penny was paid. That is nasty, but there is a temporal duration, and the payment of the debt is exacted in this way, the hard way. The easy way was to do as Jesus put in the prayer: "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors".
And indeed, Jesus TOLD US the standard of our own judgment. He said we will be judged by the standard by which we judge. That's God speaking there. So, if you're poring through the book trying to find a standard of sacrifice or a standard of automatic atonement, you may as well stop. Jesus told you the standard for your judgment: as you have judged, by the standards you have judged, so shall you be judged. And "Our Father...forgive us our debts as [i.e. "in the measure that"] we forgive our debtors..."
Jesus told us all of that.
On what authority do we disregard him?
Paul's?
Not very wise. The servant is not greater than the master. Whatever Paul meant, it can't override Jesus.

In the specific instance, the wearers of the amulets were not stoned. They died in battle, and the Bible tells us it was for that sin. So, they lost their lives for it. The question then was: how terrible should their punishment of purification be in Genhinnom? And Judas Maccabaeus and his followers made sacrifices which were accounted righteous in order to atone for the sins of the dead.

What this demonstrates is that the dead are not destroyed. Their souls go on. And that the sins they committed in their lives go with them into the afterlife. It further demonstrates that the prayers of the living are helpful for the dead.

This all part of the Catholic doctrine.
And this is where it comes from: the Bible.


195 posted on 01/29/2007 2:01:28 PM PST by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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To: Vicomte13
Not very wise. The servant is not greater than the master. Whatever Paul meant, it can't override Jesus.

There you go again, ranking Scripture! If you see a contradiction in the Scripture, perhaps your premise is incorrect.

201 posted on 01/29/2007 2:08:41 PM PST by pjr12345
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To: Vicomte13

"And this is where it comes from: the Bible."

Really, where?

"And indeed, Jesus TOLD US the standard of our own judgment"

Yes and Paul quoted it Rom. 724-8:4, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Sin has already been judged in believers and Jesus paid the penalty for that sin. Believers are therefore in the Lamb's Book of Life and will not see judgment for sin but will be judged for the deeds done and those that are according to the Spirit will survive and those not according to the Spirit will be done away with however the believer will not stand judged for sin and he/she will never be out of the presence of God.

After Jesus resurrection there was only heaven or hell for man depending on whether one has trusted Christ for salvation. There is no second chance and no chance to "spruce" oneself up spiritually to make one accepted. Jesus did that and one is accepted/rejected in this life and this life only .


214 posted on 01/29/2007 2:19:42 PM PST by blue-duncan
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