Maybe you should push the abuse button on yourself and have your post pulled.
Soft Sigh. 
Posted on 01/29/2007 6:45:51 AM PST by stfassisi
There you go again, ranking Scripture! If you see a contradiction in the Scripture, perhaps your premise is incorrect.
in fairness; although I think innocent dropped the ball big time (in not formally excommunicating every bishop on the forth crusade and some civil leaders to boot) it's hard to suggest that he personally wished for it to go down as it did with a strait face.
that said he was duped by what i'd describe as a bunch of apostate clergy who'd sold their souls in return for lots of loot.
NO SCRIPTURE NO ARGUMENT
"Why can it not be? Yes, some suffer greatly on earth, and it is commonly said that they suffer their Purgatory here, but how does that preclude it after death?"
Indeed!
There is much hidden wisdom in this statement.
Think of the agony of the "good thief" on the Cross.
The Bible does not tell us his sins. It merely says he was a rebel. Maybe he was a killer. Maybe he just flouted authority. Maybe he was a theif. Whatever, he was being tortured to death, and that's a big balloon payment on sin, isn't it?
Most deaths are horrible, wretched affairs. Today, it's long lingering in pain in the hospital, or terrible trauma in crime or accident. Some few have mercifully short deaths but for most people death is a long and painful process.
Remember that we have those hospital studies of the clinically-dead-brought-back. They report the afterlife. For most, the experience is pleasant; for some, it is not. They tell of the life review.
To the extent that we do have to pay for unrepented sins, or repented sins (if the Church is wrong about plenary grace for sins confessed and wiped clean), Jesus told us that the standard of judgment was that we should be judged as we have judged. So, the same sin may merit different punishment depending on the degree of relentless judgmentalism and unforgiving harshness of the sinner himself in life (think Lamech).
The truth is we really don't know. There are a bunch of different visions of the afterlife given in the Bible. Jesus' is clear and straightforward about what one must DO and BELIEVE in life, and what the afterlife brings. I say: cling to that, and do not be confused by the other doctrines. And I say be a fair and compassionate judge. And I say confess and repent often, and do those things Jesus said to do.
More than that Jesus didn't ask.
He also didn't demand LESS than that.
The wedding cake of doctrines piled atop other doctrines is confusing and seems to get Christians fighting with other Christians more than being charitable.
Still, Jesus referred to Hell and Purgatory in one word: Gehenna. Therefore, it is. Staying out of both so as to not have to figure out the gradations of these things would be the better course.
But that's "That's Okay".
"Thanks a lot!"
Disturbing.
Next time I'll check Consumer's Reports.
550 The Satisfaction of Christ, the Treasure of the Church, Indulgences
"Unigenitus Dei Filius," Jan. 25, 1343]
(*Gosh. That seems like only yesterday.)
The only begotten Son of God . . . "made unto us from God, wisdom, justice, sanctification and redemption" [1 Cor. 3], "neither by the blood of goats or of calves, but by His own blood entered once into the holies having obtained eternal redemption" [Heb. 9:12]. "For not with corruptible things as gold or silver, but with the precious blood of His very (Son) as of a lamb unspotted and unstained He has redeemed us" [cf.1 Pet. 1:18-19], who innocent, immolated on the altar of the Cross is known to have poured out not a little drop of blood, which however on account of union with the Word would have been sufficient for the redemption of the whole human race, but copiously as a kind of flowing stream, so that "from the soles of His feet even to the top of His Head no soundness was found in Him" [ Is. 1:6]. Therefore, how great a treasure did the good Father acquire from this for the Church militant, so that the mercy of so great an effusion was not rendered useless, vain or superfluous, wishing to lay up treasures for His sons, so that thus the Church is an infinite treasure to men, so that they who use it, become the friends of God [ Wis. 7:14].
551 Indeed this treasure . . . through blessed Peter, the keeper of the keys of heaven and his successors, his vicars on earth, He has committed to be dispensed for the good of the faithful, both from proper and reasonable causes, now for the whole, now for partial remission of temporal punishment due to sins, in general as in particular (according as they know to be expedient with God), to be applied mercifully to those who truly repentant have confessed.
552 Indeed, to the mass of this treasure the merits of the Blessed Mother of God and of all the elect from the first just even to the last, are known to give their help; concerning the consumption or the diminution of this there should be no fear at any time, because of the infinite merits of Christ (as was mentioned before) as well as for the reason that the more are brought to justification by its application, the greater is the increase of the merits themselves.
*So, what about Purgatory,BAC?
Super quibusdam" Sept 20, 1351 (Same Pope)
We ask if you have believed and now believe that there is a purgatory to which depart the souls of those dying in grace who have not yet made complete satisfaction for their sins. Also, if you have believed and now believe that they will be tortured by fire for a time and that as soon as they are cleansed, even before the day of judgment, they may come to the true and eternal beatitude which consists in the vision of God face to face and in love.
*That is pretty straightforward - for those that hear the church.
You want to have some fun?! Let's start talking about how the RCC could be perfect, holy, infallible, etc. with a pope like this at its head!
Yee Haa!!!
Agreed. To shoot for Heaven and to fall short is to reach Purgatory... but to shoot for Purgatory and fall short...
"Does God demand more judgment than that laid upon his Son at Calvary?"
Apparently.
Because Jesus said that you will be judged by the standard by which you judges.
Jesus did not say "You will not be judged."
He was God, so presumably he knew what he was talking about.
Maybe you should push the abuse button on yourself and have your post pulled.
Soft Sigh.
"And this is where it comes from: the Bible."
Really, where?
"And indeed, Jesus TOLD US the standard of our own judgment"
Yes and Paul quoted it Rom. 724-8:4, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Sin has already been judged in believers and Jesus paid the penalty for that sin. Believers are therefore in the Lamb's Book of Life and will not see judgment for sin but will be judged for the deeds done and those that are according to the Spirit will survive and those not according to the Spirit will be done away with however the believer will not stand judged for sin and he/she will never be out of the presence of God.
After Jesus resurrection there was only heaven or hell for man depending on whether one has trusted Christ for salvation. There is no second chance and no chance to "spruce" oneself up spiritually to make one accepted. Jesus did that and one is accepted/rejected in this life and this life only .
Sorry, there are no popes in the Bible!
Hmm... my bible only says we get one shot.
There's not a lot of Bibles in the Bible either... (not to mention a suspicious lack of televangelists... ).
"*U R Catholic?"
Yes.
done, FINE!(cum sigh!)
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