I'm thinking perhaps in the conventions of the apocalyptic literature written at that time this has some symbolic meaning to the writer and the first readers.
Then again, maybe not.
Posted on 01/25/2007 8:45:51 PM PST by Salvation
Not a problem at all...For a number of reasons...
While Jesus was speaking there, people that died didn't go to heaven...They went to Hell...If Peter would have dropped dead in front of Jesus, Peter would have gone to Hell...
To Abraham's bosom...Which had a locked gate and was in the earth and connected to Hell...
When Jesus said Hell would not prevail against "HIS" church, He was referring to the advent event which had not taken place yet...
When Jesus went to Hell, he opened the gates of Abraham's bosom which was connected to Hell and 'took captivity captive' and they moved on to Heaven...The devoted to God would then go to Heaven and not Hell...Thus, the gates of Hell would no longer prevail...
Has nothing to do with the things you mentioned...
To suggest that the Church is "filled with error", and that some of this error is "really really old", as pjr12345 did, clearly contradicts Matt 16:18,
Jesus was standing face to face with Peter...Jesus says, 'Thou (you) art Peter'...Now since Jesus likely had a fair command of the language he was using, it's ludicrous to suggest that he was facing Peter, said 'upon THIS rock I will build my church' and was making a reference to Peter...
Jesus would have had to have turned towards the rest of the diciples while pointing at Peter and say 'upon this rock I will build my church'...Didn't happen...
Joh 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
Guess if Peter was a large rock, Jesus wouldn't have named him Cephas...
Followers of Peter may have, or apparently have started a church...But that is not the church Jesus was referring to in Matthew, or Romans or Ephesians...Peter may have been your first pope, but there is no pope in the church Jesus started...
I respectfully disagree with your interpretation here because of the plain reading of Matt 16:18. Again:
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
If what the "gates of hell" were not to prevail against was Jesus' future Ressurection, and not His Church, then the gender neuter pronoun "it" would not have been used. In fact, Mat 16:18, if what you believe it says is true, would read, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against me."
IOW, it seems clear to me that Jesus is talking about his church in Matt 16:18, and not his eventual victory over death by His Ressurection. To say otherwise seems contrary to the plain reading of the passage, IMO.
And what "amuses" me (but not a lot) is Rome's entrenched and perpetual disdain for the guy at Burger King who faithfully studies the word of God. Some "learned men" are correct, and some are fools who are condemned by their error.
"Ye shall know them by their fruits." -- Matthew 7:16
The fruits of Rome are ashes, while the fruits of the Reformed faith are assurance and repentance and obedience and joy and gratitude and guidance.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" -- Ephesians 1:4-5"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
This country was built on and by the fruits of the Reformation.
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." -- 2 Timothy 4:1-4"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Rome has a lot to worry about, not the least of which she is following the wrong "learned men."
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." -- Revelation 13:9-10"If any man have an ear, let him hear.
"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity..."
Praise God, we have been led out of our captivity by His perfect sacrifice, once for all time. After darkness, light.
"...William Tyndale was born in 1493 AD, and died a martyr in 1536. He was educated at Oxford, and became a prominent Greek Scholar. He had obtained a copy of Erasmas' Greek New Testament and vowed before the Lord that "nothing" would stop him from learning the Greek language. He was prominently skilled as a Greek scholar and attempted a translation of the Bible (the NT) from original Greek to English. He sought to publish this translation but was turned down at every corner for the rights to publish; especially since he appealed to the Roman Catholic Church. They did not want the laity to gain hold of a copy of the Bible in their own tongue lest they misinterpret it; the Romans church believed that only the mother church is able to rightly interpret the Bible.Tyndale secretly finished the translation with the help of colleagues, and smuggled the new translation into English hands. During a dinner meeting among priests and bishops where Tyndale was present, he said that he "defied the Pope and all his laws" and vowed that "a plough-boy would know more of the Scriptures than they" so help him God..."
"or would you chose a surgeon who had picked up a medical book and read through it after his shift at Burger King?"
Gee, Paul preached after making tents all day. My father worked the third shift in a factory and took no salary while pastoring a church for 30 years so that the offerings would go towards the ministry. He educated two lawyers, two school teachers, a pastor and a family therapist and served in the Peace Corps and started his last church at age 80. I think I'll stick with the one who has real life experiences as well as a heart for the Lord than a cloistered theologian. Bunyan the tinker and Carey the cobbler come readily to mind.
I'm thinking perhaps in the conventions of the apocalyptic literature written at that time this has some symbolic meaning to the writer and the first readers.
Then again, maybe not.
I have a picture of my dead father above my desk.
Once in a while I speak to him.
Until now, I had no idea that the Bible says I worship him as an idol.
Or that God hates me doing this.
??? "Cephas" comes from the Aramaic "kepha," which means rock, large or otherwise.
Okay ... so? That's their problem, not ours.
Similarity does not guarantee equivalence, still less does similarity of action imply similarity of belief. Actions mean different things in different contexts, and they mean different things to different people. Otherwise, you have the same kind of logic that says that free societies have elections, Soviet Russia had elections, therefore Soviet Russia was a free society.
BTW, the concept of a Hindu "god" and the Christian God don't have much in common with each other. In particular, there are no "gods" (plural), there is only one, and can only be one, and your dead relatives can't become "gods" any more than a turnip can become a suspension bridge.
The fruits of Rome are millions upon millions of humble saints, glorifying God.
This country was built on and by the fruits of the Reformation.
And is guilty of tolerating the bloody murders of 45 million innocent children, and officially exalting that murder to the status of a "constitutional right". How wonderful. Is that one of the fruits of your "reformation," also?
During a dinner meeting among priests and bishops where Tyndale was present, he said that he "defied the Pope and all his laws"
I'm sure Dathan and Korah were very proud of having defied Moses, too.
Amuses, not confounds. They come up with some amazing whoppers. My favorite one is "Mary isn't really Jesus' mother, just a surrogate rent-a-womb."
Of course, the Bible clearly states otherwise, but the particular BK Bible student who espoused that theory couldn't be swayed by it; his mind was made up.
What does the Bible say "ignorant and unstable people" do to Scripture?
Absolutely. And Catholics would agree with you there.
There's a story that one of our greatest theologians, St. Thomas Aquinas, had a particular mystical experience of God toward the end of his life, and when he "recovered," he sighed and remarked that all of his life's work was only "straw".
If someone prays to dead people, he's made them gods. If someone burns a candle in front of a statue, he's worshiping an idol.
You can play religious Twister all you want in your efforts to rationalize the behavior. It still won't reconcile with God's Word.
Perhaps if the author were to read the scripture he would find in Acts that our Lord ascended into heaven in front of a whole slew of disciples after meeting all over the place with many of them. He hung around for a while. Moreover angels told them that this same Jesus would return in the same way.
Unfortunately no one can make that claim about Mary who apparently snuck out while no one was looking.
With all due respects, is your father a Saint as defined by the Roman Catholic Church, do you take your troubles to him on a regular basis, and do you feel that he will intercede for you? These are all rhetorical questions. I hope you understand the difference.
Interesting RCC idolatries:
Praying to St. Anthony to find lost objects
Having two lit (or not) candles held against your throat on St. Blaise' Day to protect you from winter colds
Having the ashes of burnt palm leaves rubbed in the shape of a cross on your forehead for Ash Wednesday (still haven't figured out the idea behind this one!)
My personal favorite: Burying a statue of St. Joseph upside down in your front yard to expedite the sale of your home.
Erecting "shrines" in various locations in honor of "anyone dead but Jesus" - sort of like the temples revering the various Roman gods.
Not to mention some of the more obscure ones (You guessed it! The ones listed above are COMMON!) like self flagellation, re-enacting the crucifixion, retracing the stations of the cross through Jerusalem on your knees, etc.
I'd love to hear the RCC explanation of why these practices are not idolatrous. I need a good laugh!
What a hoot!!! I just posted the same thing on another thread. It's one of my favorites as well. Mary gets grand Cathedrals and Joseph gets real estate signs. Oh the injustice. :O)
~~" What is preached? The Word. Not oral traditions.
Why? The Word has sound doctrine.
What happens when people avoid the Word? They get itchy ears ready to listen to fables.
How do you get an oral tradition? You hear it.
When it can't be confirmed by the truth (the Word), what is it? A fable."~~
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AMEN!
What Would Jesus Do?
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