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To: FourtySeven
Either way the meaning is clear, and a problem for virtually every Protestant: The church instituted by Christ will NEVER fail.

Not a problem at all...For a number of reasons...

While Jesus was speaking there, people that died didn't go to heaven...They went to Hell...If Peter would have dropped dead in front of Jesus, Peter would have gone to Hell...

To Abraham's bosom...Which had a locked gate and was in the earth and connected to Hell...

When Jesus said Hell would not prevail against "HIS" church, He was referring to the advent event which had not taken place yet...

When Jesus went to Hell, he opened the gates of Abraham's bosom which was connected to Hell and 'took captivity captive' and they moved on to Heaven...The devoted to God would then go to Heaven and not Hell...Thus, the gates of Hell would no longer prevail...

Has nothing to do with the things you mentioned...

To suggest that the Church is "filled with error", and that some of this error is "really really old", as pjr12345 did, clearly contradicts Matt 16:18,

Jesus was standing face to face with Peter...Jesus says, 'Thou (you) art Peter'...Now since Jesus likely had a fair command of the language he was using, it's ludicrous to suggest that he was facing Peter, said 'upon THIS rock I will build my church' and was making a reference to Peter...

Jesus would have had to have turned towards the rest of the diciples while pointing at Peter and say 'upon this rock I will build my church'...Didn't happen...

Joh 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Guess if Peter was a large rock, Jesus wouldn't have named him Cephas...

Followers of Peter may have, or apparently have started a church...But that is not the church Jesus was referring to in Matthew, or Romans or Ephesians...Peter may have been your first pope, but there is no pope in the church Jesus started...

61 posted on 01/26/2007 10:28:40 AM PST by Iscool (There will be NO peace on earth, NOR good will toward men UNTIL there is Glory to God in the Highest)
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To: Iscool
When Jesus said Hell would not prevail against "HIS" church, He was referring to the advent event which had not taken place yet...

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation here because of the plain reading of Matt 16:18. Again:

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

If what the "gates of hell" were not to prevail against was Jesus' future Ressurection, and not His Church, then the gender neuter pronoun "it" would not have been used. In fact, Mat 16:18, if what you believe it says is true, would read, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against me."

IOW, it seems clear to me that Jesus is talking about his church in Matt 16:18, and not his eventual victory over death by His Ressurection. To say otherwise seems contrary to the plain reading of the passage, IMO.

62 posted on 01/26/2007 10:46:21 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Iscool
Guess if Peter was a large rock, Jesus wouldn't have named him Cephas

??? "Cephas" comes from the Aramaic "kepha," which means rock, large or otherwise.

67 posted on 01/26/2007 1:53:47 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Iscool

**Guess if Peter was a large rock, Jesus wouldn't have named him Cephas...**

He did. But then maybe you have another translation of the Bible that is different. But those words are in our Bible.


93 posted on 01/26/2007 5:41:39 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Iscool; FourtySeven; Salvation
Peter may have been your first pope, but there is no pope in the church Jesus started...

So, would you then assert that the Epistles written by Peter SHOULD NOT be included in Canon and are actually heretical? Because if Peter started a "false church," then there should be no credence given to anything he wrote. And if this is what you are saying, then you are saying something that Christians HAVE NEVER BELIEVED.

96 posted on 01/26/2007 5:54:10 PM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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