Posted on 01/11/2007 10:55:59 AM PST by HarleyD
Look it up before you pounce.
"Until and unless Neocatholics can prove that Christ, in Matthew 16, specifically granted Peter papal authority and that Christ thereby intended to establish an unbroken chain of apostolic succession from Peter onward (both of which are read into the text), they have not met the exegetical burden that is incumbent upon them."
This reminds me of a line from an old Marx brothers movie:
"A day at The Races" in it, Chicko says something like "So. you think your horse won? Why just because he finished ahead of the other horses?"
I have always found it amazing that some Protestants will be so selective about how literal they read Holy Scripture, to suit their mistaken construct.
I forgot to mention one more thing about the Sacraments... they were practiced by Jesus Himself!
He was baptized and instructed His Apostles to do the same. He reconciled with sinners. He lived the life of a priest. He instituted the Eucharist and offered Himself for the forgiveness of sins. He forgave and welcomed the thief crucified with Him into Heaven. He didn't marry but He did discuss and affirm it in Matt 19.
What Jesus brought wasn't new, it was fulfillment of all.
Um, Harley, the first printed Bible was a Catholic Latin Vulgate, printed by a Catholic layman, who spent the last years of his life as part of a Catholic bishop's household, essentially as close to being a cleric as he could be without actually being ordained.
The Council of Trent never forbade anyone to read the Bible, whether printed or not.
What you are apparently thinking of is that Protestant translations, including the KJV, were placed on the Index of Forbidden Books after Trent. Unless you think that "the Bible" means the KJV but not, e.g., the Douay-Rheims or the Vulgate, it's ridiculous and wrong to say that Bible reading was forbidden after the Reformation.
If you guys are going to make charges against us, at least try to get them right.
Read the whole thread before you comment. His footnotes are garbage.
According to Christ both the baptism by water AND the baptism by the spirit are neccessary. (This is why we Orthodox have both the baptism by water in the name of the father son and holy spirit, AND Chrismation which is when the Holy Spirit seals baptism)
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
The comments about faith in Jesus being a bit insufficient and wobbly, compared to faith in the church, is frankly a bit disconcerting. My faith is in Christ, and His finished work on the cross on my behalf. There is only one mediator now between man and God, and that is Jesus Christ, not a priesthood, not the hoops of sacraments, not the saints, not the church. If anyone puts their faith in anything other than Christ for salvation, they're running a severe risk of missing it.
"Protestantism" is not a concept in Scripture, and it is mentioned nowhere. There are now over 30,000 different Protestant denominations which is totally UN-Scriptural, as proved by the verses following the ones you quoted (which you conveniently left out) where Jesus prays 4 times, in 3 short verses, that "they all may be one."
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."
John 17:20-24
Catholics believe in Jesus as presented in Scripture and by the teaching of the Apostles and their direct successors, the Bishops.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."
John 13:20
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
John 14:28
"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"
John 20:22
"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
Acts 1:8
Would that be like, "if you do not eat my flesh and drink my blood...". ;O)
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Matthew 5:5
Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
I Peter 5:5b-10
Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
James 4:6b-7, 10
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galations 5:22-23
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2: 14-16
50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."
We Catholics believe in the Church instituted by Christ and passed on through His Apostles and their successors. However, there is no reason to think that those who profess His Holy Name outside of our fellowship are automatically going to hell. We follow as we have been taught. Jesus will judge all of us in His day.
Some of you do. However, some have condemned me to hell.
I stand corrected. What I should have said was that Trent forbid free thought and free press in matters of the Bible.
And some have molested kids and some have fallen short of their calling. Don't paint with too broad a brush from limited experience.
The Catholic Church doesn't teach that you are going to hell... that is up to Jesus. We do know, however, that there is deeper truth and understanding in the Church for those who seek it. Go where Christ leads you and serve Him as He asks.
How could that be? Since the canon supposedly was not defined until Trent how could anybody even know what Scripture was? But if that were the case how could Jesus hold men accountable to it?
Cordially,
You think they have the power to do that? Must be scary having your soul at the mercy of other people's opinions.
Before the NT was canon, the OT was well defined. It was to these OT books the Epistles referenced when they referred to Scripture. The Church produced copies of Scripture through hard working scribes before the advent of the printing press and that made the books rare and very valuable in any parish. For this reason, they were protected in the churches and made available for study but not for removal.
But if that were the case how could Jesus hold men accountable to it?
Exactly! Before the Canon of Scripture was defined, there was the Church. Men were held accountable to the Church and her teachings. It can be fairly well demonstrated that personal interpretation of the Scriptures outside of the Church's teachings has led to disunion in the Church, not unity as Christ prayed for us.
The Apostles brought traditions and oral instruction, not books of the Bible (there wasn't one yet). See 2 Thess 2:15, 2 Thess 3:6 and 1 Cor 11:2 for proof this assertion.
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