LOL!!!!!
Posted on 01/05/2007 1:37:38 PM PST by Carolina
POPE BENEDICT XVI has spoken by telephone to a number of French bishops to persuade them to accept a wider use of the Tridentine Mass, it has been claimed.
The Pontiff brought French bishops who oppose the Tridentine Mass "to a reluctant but decisive change of view", according to the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter (FSSP), an organisation of Old Rite priests that the Pope strongly supports.
It is widely expected that a papal document will soon be released to allow priests to celebrate the Tridentine Mass – using the pre-Vatican II 1962 Latin Missal – without the explicit permission of the local bishop, though probably only in the low-key setting of a "private" celebration. The document, which will be released motu proprio, or on the Pope’s own initiative, has caused concern among bishops in France, where traditionalist groups are particularly active.
But efforts by the French episcopate to "torpedo" the initiative have failed, according to Videre Petrum, the FSSP’s British newsletter.
"It is said that the mild but persuasive words of Pope Benedict, who personally spoke by telephone to many of the most intransigent enemies of tradition among the bishops of France, worked a sort of miracle, and brought them to a reluctant but decisive change of view, or at least to a recognition of the limits of disobedience," the newsletter said. Cardinal Jorge Medina Estevez, a former prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, said last month that the Vatican’s Ecclesia Dei commission had discussed the document and would pass on its conclusions to the Pope.
The cardinal added that he did not expect the commission, set up in 1988 to oversee Vatican relations with traditionalists, to discuss the document any further.
Commentators say priests will be allowed to celebrate the Tridentine Rite without permission at "private Masses" that would be nevertheless be open to the public.
The proposed reform would put pressure on the bishops of England and Wales to adopt a more welcoming stance towards the FSSP, which currently has only two priests based in London.
HIP HIP HURRAH FOR THE HOLY FATHER!!!
As far as I understand, a public Mass is one that is regularly scheduled. A private Mass publicly celebrated is one that is not on the regular schedule, but is open to the laity.
Very possible. Of course, the only reason France was a hotbed of the SSPX in the first place was because of the behavior of the modernist French bishops...so I can see why they'd be upset. I just don't understand what power they have. Their churches are already empty and they are selling French churches to the Muslims - so who cares if the French bishops are annoyed?
That said, I know the Pope doesn't want to quench the smoking flax. Although I'm not sure they're even smoking any more, and obviously, most of the French don't think so either.
So, if twhat is rumored is implemented, there must be a contingent of the faithful asking each time before they get a single Trindentine Mass?
This is progress, but it is very disappointing. The hope was certainly that upon a request a Tridentine Mass is scheduled weekly till a change warrants a reschedule or cancellation.
"As far as I understand, a public Mass is one that is regularly scheduled. A private Mass publicly celebrated is one that is not on the regular schedule, but is open to the laity."
That is my understanding. I am disappointed if Tridentine is only for private masses. I thought this was going to be for public tridentine masses. If this had been extended to public masses, then these could be scheduled at realistic times for Sunday mass. Seems to me, in the end, this will have little to no practical effect. All the hoopla has been over nothing.
LOL!!!!!
Thank you Monk for posting the video link.
Just great. Thanks
Does anyone know what this means exactly?
Elegant!
Reverence, patience (especially with yourself), most churches who have an Indult Mass supply the Latin/English translation, and remember not to say "amen" when you receive the Host. I would suggest going to a Latin Novus Ordo if there is one in you area but even that is quite different from the Tridentine in some very basic ways. If this permission is given I suspect most of those attending will be a bit leery as well but then the Mass is worth reverence, patience and humility. God bless you.
How many Catholics were led to abandon the Church by this radicalism?
**
I have often wondered about that. Our whole world seemed turned upside down in the twinking of an eye by the so-called reforms that followed Vatican II.
I agree with all that you said in post #27.
I want my real Mass back.
Of course I understand. Liberalism is infected by a spitit of positivism, which says that not only the Liturgy but the whole of what the Church has called tradition is no more than human invention and is therefore subject to manipulation and change. It even says the same thing about the Holy Scriptures.
Today's edition of the WDTPRS....really neat!
About the Pope calling bishops
CATEGORY: SESSIUNCULUM — Fr. John Zuhlsdorf @ 4:28 pm
I have heard from curial old timers, and I do mean old, that if the Pope were to call on the telephone, you would hear the voice of the secretary say, "Il Papa parla… The Pope speaks." At that point you would get down on your knees (if you could) and wait. I imagine that that sort of thing went out with kissing the holy pantofola.
I posted a note about the story going around that the Holy Father may be making personal phone calls to French bishops to help them get on board Peter’s Barque in regard to derestricting the older form of Mass.
If this is true, it is a fantastic thing, and another sign that in Benedict’s Vatican, it is not exactly business as usual. Joseph Ratzinger was never the sort of man to leave work to someone else. So, it would not surprise me in the least that he might tell his secretary to get someone on the phone and then reason with him.
Benedict thinks he can get Muslims to reason with him, so he might be able to expect the same from French bishops, ne c’est pas?
And whom do you suppose would prevail in a reasoned discussion about the older form of Mass and the state of the Church?
It is clear that the Holy Father cannot call every bishop in the world. Then again, he doesn’t have to, does he. All he needs to do is call a very few key players. Word would get around very fast and most everyone would start falling into line. This is simply good leadership.
In times past… well… why limit ourselves to the past… we might imagine a scenario in which the Holy Father, after grave deliberation and many attempts at persuasion would reach out and remove a single "red hat" from a sitting diocesan archbishop. When called to the Apostolic Palace by the Vicar of Christ, "His Eminence" is ushered into with solemn regard. At the end of the meeting "His Excellency" is ushered out with solemn regard. He then returns to his work back home with many fewer distractions! Points of resistance might start to melt away.
Okay, that is a super dramatic scenario, but something like it it did historically occur. Pius XI accepted back the red hat when Louis Billot, SJ, "resigned" over a disagreement about Action Française. Pope Benedict, however, has a far gentler style.
I can very much imagine His Holiness making calls to those who were the most vehemently opposed to the derestriction. He would make the call to listen to the other point of view (as he has always done). Otherwise, he might just be making the calls if only to fill them in on the fact that it was going to happen soon and that he wanted their cooperation.
Some ecclesiastical Bob Newhart could have a field day with this.
"Allo??
"Your Excellency, good morning. Pope Benedict here. I hope you have a few minutes free. I would like to talk to you about the ‘Tridentine Mass’.
"Benedict… Pope Benedict. In Rome.
"No, this isn’t …. No. Your Excell… No, this isn’t Stinky. It really is Benedict… Joseph Ratz… Yes. That’s okay.
"Right. According to Fr. Z’s blog, Your Excellency has been rather strong in voicing opposition to the derestriction of the pre-Conciliar Missale.
"Yes, that’s right. I read… yes, I read him too. But that’s really not why called.
"No…. No…. Triden…. Yes…. that’s right.
"Please, Your Excellency… Jacques … pull yourself together. Men should be able to talk through their differences about things, see new viewpoints.
....
"As far as I understand, a public Mass is one that is regularly scheduled. A private Mass publicly celebrated is one that is not on the regular schedule, but is open to the laity."
That is my understanding. I am disappointed if Tridentine is only for private masses. I thought this was going to be for public tridentine masses. If this had been extended to public masses, then these could be scheduled at realistic times for Sunday mass. Seems to me, in the end, this will have little to no practical effect. All the hoopla has been over nothing.
Not necessarily! Everyone is frothing over this private vs. public and no Motu Proprio has been even published. What is to prevent a "standing order" private Mass each Sunday? If I can get 30 people to request one for tomorrow, how about if I get 30 more for next Sunday? Then too, read the post on how the Holy Father is CALLING RECALCITRANT BISHOPS! Fr. Z. makes light of this, but the Holy Father COULD recall a red cap if he feels the man is being adamant. This Pope is being a leader, a shepherd.
The old men think this is something the old want. It is not! As I mentioned above, the priests in the US tell me that the young are clamoring for this Mass! Pray for the Holy Father and wait and see.
Welcome! It is great to hear you are joining the Church!
If you wish to attend a Tridentine Mass, it is best to visit one of the sites on the internet first which have all the prayers of the Mass and read them in advance. It helps you to see just how different the Masses are.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/latinmass2.html
I would arrive early. If you are a woman, it is normal to cover your head with a hat or a mantilla if you have one (chapel veil).
Many Churches have a red book put out by the Latin Mass Society that has the prayers in Enlish and Latin. That book will help.
The Mass is said by the priest and the servers respond for us. Thus, we have no responses per se. Much of what is said is silent so the priest will loudly enunciate certain words, "Orate Fratres" for example, so that you can recognize which part of the Mass is now being said. The Epistle and Gospel will be read in Latin but again in English along with the homily.
In terms of movement, simply follow those of the people surrounding you in standing or kneeling. At communion, the altar rail is used, one kneels and receives communion on the tongue and there is no response. The priest says a prayer which means "May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ Bring You to Everlasting Life." He will say this is he administers communion.
The reverence of the Mass should be apparent to all. I hope you appreciate the Mass of St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Catherine of Siena. I also hope a good Gregorian group is singing if it is a High Mass.
Frank
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.