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Bone fragment likely not Joan of Arc
Yahoo News ^ | December 17, 2006 | CHRISTIAN PANVERT

Posted on 12/17/2006 3:29:22 PM PST by NYer

A rib bone and a piece of cloth supposedly recovered after Joan of Arc was burned at the stake are probably not hers, according to experts trying to unravel one of the mysteries surrounding the 15th century French heroine.

Eighteen experts began a series of tests six months ago on the fragments reportedly recovered from the pyre where the 19-year-old was burned for heresy.

Although the tests have not been completed, findings so far indicate there is "relatively little chance" that the remnants are hers, Philippe Charlier, the head of the team, told The Associated Press on Saturday.

The fragment of linen from the 15th century "wasn't burned. It was dyed," Charlier said. And a blackened substance around the 6-inch rib bone was not "carbonized remains" but vegetable and mineral debris, "something that rather resembles embalming substance," he said.

Joan of Arc was burned to death on May 30, 1431 in the Normandy town of Rouen following a trial. Legend has it that her ashes were scattered in the Seine River.

The rib bone and piece of cloth were supposedly recovered from the pyre by an unidentified person and conserved by an apothecary until 1867, before being turned over to the archdiocese of Tours. They are now stored at a museum in Chinon, about 150 miles southwest of Paris.

In 1909, scientists declared it "highly probable" that the remains were those of Joan of Arc. Given developments in genetic technology in recent years, researchers decided to test the remains again to try to determine if they were definitely hers.

But the probability that the remains are those of Joan of Arc are "enormously lessening," Charlier said. "We're instead moving toward the hypotheses of a fake relic or of a relic that was transformed."

"It could be that these are human remains of the 15th century subjected to a sort of embalming or protection as happened when relics were manipulated," he said. "But we know, in any event, that Joan of Arc was not embalmed."

A cat femur found among the remains just confuses the matter.

For some, it lends weight to the notion of a hoax or a fake relic. However, other historians say cats or other animals representing the devil could have been thrown into pyres in medieval times, Charlier said. In any case, the blackened substance around the cat femur, like the rib bone, was also found to be vegetable and mineral debris, he said.

Charlier stressed that results from other tests were still pending, including carbon-14 dating and genetic tests to determine the sex of the individual.

Joan of Arc was tried for heresy and witchcraft and burned at the stake after leading the French to several victories over the English during the Hundred Years War, notably in Orleans, south of Paris.

The illiterate farm girl from Lorraine, in eastern France, disguised herself as a man in her war campaigns and said she heard voices from a trio of saints telling her to deliver France from the English. Joan of Arc was beatified in 1909 and made a saint in 1920.


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: ancientautopsies; catholic; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; joanofarc; relic; romancatholicism; stjoanarc

1 posted on 12/17/2006 3:29:27 PM PST by NYer
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...


2 posted on 12/17/2006 3:30:36 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...


3 posted on 12/17/2006 3:31:30 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: NYer

Saint Joan of Arc Chapel on the Marquette University Campus in Milwaukee, WI

http://www.marquette.edu/chapel/

 

4 posted on 12/17/2006 4:01:06 PM PST by Incorrigible (If I lead, follow me; If I pause, push me; If I retreat, kill me.)
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To: NYer

Solved At Last: The Burning Mystery Of Joan Of Arc

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1754881/posts?page=1


5 posted on 12/17/2006 4:22:40 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: NYer

Well how will they tell one way or another? If they had a sample of her DNA from some undisputed source, then the test should be easy.


6 posted on 12/17/2006 6:34:15 PM PST by Rampolla
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To: Rampolla

And just what difference would it make if Joan of Arc left behind a bone fragment?


7 posted on 12/18/2006 11:20:53 AM PST by tessalu
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To: NYer

"La Pucelle" bumpus ad summum


8 posted on 12/19/2006 12:53:05 AM PST by Dajjal (See my FR homepage for new essay about Ahmadinejad.)
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To: NYer
update:
Joan of Arc remains 'are fakes'
BBC
4 April 2007
The remains consisted of a charred-looking human rib, chunks of what appeared to be blackened wood, a 15-centimetre fragment of linen, and a cat thigh bone... Recognised as genuine and sacred by the Church, the "remains" are now housed in a museum in Chinon belonging to the Archdiocese of Tours. Dr Charlier... used a range of scientific tests such as spectrometry, electron microscopy, and pollen analysis. Those tests dated the bone to between the seventh and third centuries BC, Dr Charlier said. The cat bone dated from the same period and also was mummified... two smell experts, Sylvaine Delacourte and Jean-Michel Duriez, from the perfume industry... smelled hints of "burnt plaster" and "vanilla" in the samples... But a vanilla smell is inconsistent with cremation. It comes from the compound vanillin, which is released during the decomposition of a body. Analysis of the black crust covering the rib and the cat bone showed that it was not caused by fire, but an embalming mix of wood resins, bitumen and chemicals such as malachite.

9 posted on 04/06/2007 8:30:57 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: blam; FairOpinion; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; 49th; ...
Blast from the Past -- December 2006 -- with an April 2007 update. Grille of my dreams ping...

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
Gods, Graves, Glyphs PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

10 posted on 04/06/2007 8:32:19 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv

mark twain was obsessed with joan of arc and wrote a book about her.


11 posted on 04/06/2007 8:47:14 PM PDT by ken21 (it takes a village to brainwash your child + to steal your property! /s)
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To: SunkenCiv
Charred relics are not Joan of Arc's, says expert

By Steve Connor, Science Editor
Published: 05 April 2007

The relics of Joan of Arc - the Catholic saint who was burnt at the stake in 1431 - are a forgery and are probably derived from a much-older Egyptian mummy, a study has found.

A forensic scientist has shown that the bones and linen fragments discovered in the attic of a Paris pharmacy in 1867 were not those of a woman who had died in the 15th century.

Instead, it appears that the bones belong to a person who had died some time between the 6th and 3rd centuries BC, and had been embalmed in the manner of ancient Egypt.

After the "relics" came to light in the 19th century they were recognised as genuine by the Catholic Church and have since been held in a museum in the Loire town of Chinon.

Philippe Charlier of the Raymond Poincaré Hospital in Garches near Paris, who was given permission to study the remains, is quoted in the journal Nature saying that they belong to an Egyptian mummy who had lived many hundreds of years before Joan of Arc.

"I'd never have thought that it could be from a mummy," Dr Charlier said.

The relics comprise a charred human rib, chunks of what seem to be carbonised wood, a 15cm fragment of linen and a femur from a cat. An inscription found with the material said: "Remains found under the stake of Joan of Arc, Maid of Orleans."

The charred appearance of the bones, wood and linen were consistent with the idea that they belonged to someone who had been burnt at the stake. The cat's bone supported the notion that a black cat had been thrown on the pyre - a tradition when women were burnt as witches.

However, high-powered microscopes showed that the black crust on the bones was not carbonised as a result of being burnt, but impregnated deposits of mineral and vegetable material. "I see burnt remains all the time in my job. It was obviously not burnt tissue," Dr Charlier said.

Instead, the black material appears to be the result of an embalming mix of wood resins, bitumen and chemicals such as malachite. Dr Charlier also found pine pollen - pine trees did not grow in Normandy at the time Joan of Arc was killed, but pine resin was widely used for embalming in ancient Egypt.

Two further lines of evidence point to a link with ancient Egypt. Carbon dating of the remains suggest they belong to the period between the 6th and 3rd centuries BC. And spectroscopic profiles of the rib, femur and wood chips match those of Egyptian mummies from the same period. Joan of Arc, who was canonised in 1920, was a peasant girl from eastern France who heard the voices of saints and rose to become the inspiration for the French armies to defeat the invading English. She was captured and burnt at the stake at the age of 19, with her body being burned three times to make sure there was little left to worship.

Dr Charlier says the Catholic Church is ready to accept his study's results.

12 posted on 04/06/2007 8:50:18 PM PDT by blam
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To: SunkenCiv

Really fascinating. When and how did the remains of an Egyptian Mummy get linked to Saint Joan?


13 posted on 04/06/2007 8:53:22 PM PDT by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO "We are going to take things away from you for the Common Good")
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To: Cincinna

Early 1900s.


14 posted on 04/06/2007 8:57:52 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: NYer
"historians say cats or other animals representing the devil could have been thrown into pyres in medieval times,"

Could one throw in their mother inlaw saying that she was a spawn of the devil?

15 posted on 04/06/2007 11:31:59 PM PDT by John 6.66=Mark of the Beast? ("If God is your Father then I am your Brother" Larry Norman)
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To: Jo Nuvark

I’m certainly glad to hear it wasn’t you!


16 posted on 04/06/2007 11:42:56 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Cincinna
"When and how did the remains of an Egyptian Mummy get linked to Saint Joan?"

One of her fellow witches, that tried to save her from the fire screwed up the incantation, and she got exchanged with an Egyptian long buried in the desert instead.

17 posted on 04/07/2007 12:00:22 AM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: P-Marlowe

Holy Smokes!


18 posted on 04/07/2007 8:24:01 AM PDT by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: NYer; Cincinna
"A pen and ink sketch by Clement de Fauquembergue, the secretary of the Parliament of Paris. Drawn on the day that news arrived in Paris of the French victory at Orleans. The artist had never seen Jeanne d'Arc." -- caption and image from Cincinna
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

19 posted on 04/26/2007 7:19:38 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Tuesday, April 24, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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