'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

[Campion]

The helenisticand anti-biblical horror of sexuality makes a totem out of repudiating a vital component of human experience, and of God's image in humanity. The BVM of mariolatry, like little blue Krishna, is a neutered subhuman.

You think virgins are neutered subhumans? Someone who hasn't had sex just isn't truly human?

Revelation speaks of a 144,000 men who have not "defiled themselves with women". The word used indicates ritual impurity, not sin. Those are 144,000 male virgins. It doesn't say that they're neutered subhumans.

John the Baptist? A neutered subhuman?

[bornacatholic]

wow...Bless you, sister

[TomSmedley]

I am referring to a specific case of virginity, that imputed to the BVM, who is believed by some Christians to have wickedly defrauded her lawful spouse.

I think better of her.

[Campion]

Which Christians believe that the BVM "wickedly defrauded her lawful spouse"?

Since Catholics believe that to refuse to pay the marriage debt without just cause is a grave sin, and we also believe that the Blessed Virgin never sinned, you can't possibly mean us.

Your comments, sir, are way over the line into incredibly offensive territory.

[bornacatholic]

In some profound way, sexuality images God. "In the image of God created He him. Male and female created He them." Believing she was a true and faithful wife to Joseph in no way impugns Mary's holiness. Rather, treating her husband in a righteous way is the holiest thing a wife can do.

* Are you suggesting that the perpetual virginityy of Mary would mean she treated Joseph Unjustly?

How is such an idea compatible with Mary's freedom from Sin?

[TomSmedley]

* Are you suggesting that the perpetual virginity of Mary would mean she treated Joseph Unjustly?

How is such an idea compatible with Mary's freedom from Sin?

That IS the corner you seem to have backed yourself into, my dear sister, and highly esteemed fellow saint. BTW -- I'd appreciate your prayers for my employment situation -- just finished another round of interviews.

[TomSmedley]

* Are you suggesting that the perpetual virginity of Mary would mean she treated Joseph Unjustly?

How is such an idea compatible with Mary's freedom from Sin?

That IS the corner you seem to have backed yourself into, my dear sister, and highly esteemed fellow saint. BTW -- I'd appreciate your prayers for my employment situation -- just finished another round of interviews.

[zbigreddogz]

I have no problem with saying the portrayal of Mary doesn't meet Catholic standards, but why should it have to? Aren't protestant interpretations allowed?

[kosta50]

In my experience as a Protestant, the motivation was due in part to a prideful egalitarianism

Well said. It captures the spirit of Porestant attitudes, imo.

[adiaireton8]

Our Lord was unmarried, which is a permissable, but generally less desirable, option.

The notion that remaining single is the "less desireable option" is contrary to 1 Corinthians 7 and the account of Mary and Martha in Luke 10.

-A8

[alnick]

Though sinless, she certainly experienced conflicts with those who were not, felt righteous anger, sadness, and joy. She is, after all, human.

According to Romans 3:23, Mary was not sinless.

Romans 3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Yes, she was human, which indicates that she was indeed a sinner, as are/were all humans, with the exception of Jesus Christ.

[adiaireton8]

So since you reject the Fifth Ecumenical Council's teaching on Mary's perpetual virginity, why then do you accept the Ecumenical Creeds?

That IS the corner you seem to have backed yourself into, my dear sister, and highly esteemed fellow saint.

Your assumption that couples must engage in sexual relations with one another is the false assumption. Paul even points this out in 1 Cor 7:5, where his qualification concerning married couples abstaining "for a time" is still "by way of concession, not of command". The 'duty' of engaging in sexual relations with one's spouse depends upon the state of the spouse. If a husband and a wife both desire to consecrate themselves to the Lord and give up sexual relations, then they have no overriding duty to engage in sexual relations with each other. And thus Mary and Joseph did not sin by never having sexual relations.

-A8

[Antoninus]

Yes, she was human, which indicates that she was indeed a sinner, as are/were all humans, with the exception of Jesus Christ.

Personally, I'll take St. Augustine's opinion over yours:

In refuting Pelagius, St. Augustine declares that all the just have truly known of sin 'except the Holy Virgin Mary, of whom, for the honour of the Lord, I will have no question whatever where sin is concerned" (De naturâ et gratiâ 36).

Heck, even another Augustinian, Martin Luther--the inventor of sola scriptura, himself--was closer to the truth on this matter than you are.

[adiaireton8]

Or are you saying that there are other ways to lose one's virginity?

I'm saying that virginity is not only formal, but also material. The whole idea of the Church's belief that Mary remained a virgin in the very process of giving birth to Jesus, is not aimed principally at denying that sexual intercourse occurred during that process. Rather, it shows that the Church understood the material aspect of virginity, and not just the formal aspect of virginity.

-A8

[Antoninus]

Your assumption that couples must engage in sexual relations with one another is the false assumption. Paul even points this out in 1 Cor 7:5, where his qualification concerning married couples abstaining "for a time" is still "by way of concession, not of command". The 'duty' of engaging in sexual relations with one's spouse depends upon the state of the spouse. If a husband and a wife both desire to consecrate themselves to the Lord and give up sexual relations, then they have no overriding duty to engage in sexual relations with each other. And thus Mary and Joseph did not sin by never having sexual relations.

Nailed it!

[TomSmedley]

married couples abstaining "for a time" ...

And then, come together again, lest Satan tempt you ... for we are not ignorant of his devices. Like fasting, this kind of abstinence is viewed as a temporary condition. To make it permanent is to sin against the spouse, and the God Who ordained and blessed the marital union as normative.

[Iscool]

Apocalypse 12....

And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:

*Mary, or Bette Midler, as Queen of Heaven?

You couldn't find a bigger piece of bologna if you looked in a delicatessen...What'd you do? throw out every other verse in the chapter and apply this one to Mary???

The only verse that COULD apply to Mary is verse 2, but it doesn't...It could not possibly be Mary in verses 3,4,6,14 or 17...

So Israel is the 'woman' in the context...Israel brought forth the Lord Jesus Christ...

[bornacatholic]

I am your brother, brother.

While I do, of course, accept the Christian Doctrines about Mary, I will concede I have backed myself into a corner only in the sense that mundane and materialistic errors have a broad popular appeal in the middle of protestant America; and in the minds of some protestant Christian minds - and the circle appears to be widening; widening to such an extent that it is even driving the rapidly diminishing orthodoxy from the corners of many protestant minds.

I shall pray you find a job, brother.

Meanwhile, I shall huddle with the faithful remnant in any orthodox corner I can find :)

And, pray to Jesus He will enlighten your intellect to the truth about His Mother.

Ask, Seek, Knock. He will answer. You will find the truth. He will open your mind to that truth. All you need to do is open your mind - on the truth.

Have a productive Advent, brother