'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

This argument fails on two points. First, it is biblically incorrect. "Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." By virtue of not being cast into Hell without any further delay, God blesses the lost.

Don't you realize that before the very foundation of the world, before you had ever accepted Christ as Savior, God already loved you and had a plan for your life.

Second, your statement mischaracterizes what I have explicitly said for thread after thread (including in answers directed to you). The ones receiving the blessing will be regenerate Israel. They are the ones who will inherit the earthly as well as the heavenly promises God made to Abraham.

Harley, in the book of Daniel, Daniel is instructed to seal up the words of his book until the time of the end.

HOGWASH! He loved us Harley, even while we were still rejecting Him. It may fit in your mind intellectually but it is very poor scripturally.

For now. You are corrrect. BUT ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.

You just contradicted the earlier statement. God doesn't bless those who have no faith in Him. Of course, He does.

Jer 33:25 This is what the LORD says: 'If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The promise was to choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham. The one who rules over us is Christ. Those who believe in Christ have been grafted into Abraham linage. Those who do not believe in Christ are not part of Abraham.

If he doesn’t, then we are all damned. NONE OF US sought Him. NO NOT ONE. He had to seek us first.

Exactly and precisely. We did not choose Him but He chose us. That is what grace and mercy is all about.

God shows kindness to even the unbelievers.

Yes, as I mentioned to Blogger, I was imprecise on this statement and wrong. God blesses both the just and the unjust. A good chapter is Ecc 9.

You could have found Scriptures supporting my contention . . . if you’d cared to.

Ref 14293

But Annalex in 14293 seemed to be saying something quite opposite.

Has RC theology now become schizophrenic?

Or Jeckyl / Hyde?

I strongly recommend avoiding the presumption that everyone you are speaking to here is indeed, mortal.

Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. – Hebrews 13:2

== = =

Excellent exhortation, imho.

annalex:
Wise decision. Do not feed the trolls.

Hmmmmmm . . . Folks I know hereon on the Evangelical side of things--are--at least most of them as far as I can discern or tell--

ARE

Blood Bought children of the Most High King of Kings and Lord of Lords who have accepted His Bood as their Salvation and Justification. They are Heavenbound, Washed-in-The-Blood; Joint-heirs with Christ; Children of the Most High God Almighty; Grafted-in-Children-of-Abraham; . . .

If I understand Jesus' attitude toward us at all . . . I suspect that His feeling is that if you call us trolls, you call Him a troll. I am skeptical He's impressed.

Of course, I suppose it's possible . . . I doubt all of us have forgotten how . . . we could probably return fairly quickly to calling some RC's some well earned labels that seem exceedingly fitting to some of us.

But I'd had the impression that we were trying to demonstrate that by God's Grace and Spirit's help, we were in the process of earnestly endeavoring to grow beyond 2 year old mentalities and behaviors.

Now, as to the issue of haughty self-righteousness, I suspect others would do better at tackling that.

Exactly and precisely. We did not choose Him but He chose us. That is what grace and mercy is all about.
PRECISELY INDEED! And that is what we are saying! Right now, Israel is partially blinded. Some come to Christ but most do not. But one day, by the good pleasure of God's will and mercy and grace, she won't be. As Romans says, blindess IN PART has come to Israel U N T I L the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This harmonizes with Isaiah 29 which in its very text has a close tie to Romans 9-11. Read along...

Isaiah 29

1Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.

2Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.

3And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.

4And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

5Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.

6Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

7And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.

8It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.

9Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

15Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

16Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? [Note, Romans 9 quotes this verse]

17Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?

18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

19The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

20For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:

21That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

22Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.

23But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

24They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

Who is the Holy One of Israel but Jesus Christ???? Here is Isaiah (and in Zechariah, and in Romans, and in Ezekiel, and in Revelation and in Jeremiah) we find that ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.

Romans 11
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The only Promises to Abraham that were fulfilled in Christ . . . that I can recall off the top of my head . . . are:

1. That the Messiah would come through him.
2. That the gentiles would also be blessed through him.

Am I forgetting one?

Of course Belivers since and currently HAVE.

But their received inputs from Holy Spirit have not been vetted by 300 years of church life, yet.

AND,

MOST IMPORTANTLY, GOD SEEMS TO HAVE FINISHED ENSCRIPTURATING.

So, in terms of SCRIPTURE, additional inputs by Holy Spirit are evidently not to be even considered as candidates for additions to Scripture. God seems to have closed the Canon.

Does NOT mean He has stopped talking to His kids—about their personal lives as well as what HE, GOD ALMIGHTY IS UP TO AND ABOUT TO BE UP TO.

I COR 14 presents how to vet such inputs. Of course, CESSATIONTARIANS are loathe to listen to God in THE PRESENT.

Do not feed the trolls.

I don't have the patience or the desire to go around and around in circles, ever repeating the same thing over and over again...

Regards

The promise was to choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham. The one who rules over us is Christ. Those who believe in Christ have been grafted into Abraham linage. Those who do not believe in Christ are not part of Abraham.
THAT Promise, indeed. But there are more promises that God made to Abraham than the greatest promise of the coming King. For example:
Genesis 13
14And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

For how long? Until your seed blows it? Until I change my mind? For 4000 years and then, well, then it belongs to whomever? No. FOREVER.

This promise is reitterated elsewhere to Abraham as an old man. Genesis 17 1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. 15And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. 16And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

So here, we have the land. Many nations. And a son. It is an everlasting covenant. For the descendants part, they must be circumcized. Funny, even today with much of Judaism being secular, most are still circumcized.

And again in Genesis 22:
15And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

And that is just to Abraham Himself. God makes similar promises to Abraham's various descendants. Some are conditional. Some are not. They could have inherited the fulness of the land forever during Joshua's time. God offered it to them and its a lot bigger than the borders it has possessed from Abraham's time til now. They disobeyed and did not meet the conditions of receiving it at that time. But other promises are unconditional and Prophecy after Prophecy speaks of Israel being drawn back into her land during the latter days and there being saved by the grace of God and finally knowing the Messiah who came to save them.

Why wasn't this preached? First, it was. Maybe not widespread, but it was. Second, most folks were illiterate and relied on the priesthood until the 1500s for their lessons. Many priests were illiterate themselves. And those who weren't often looked at prophecy with the methodology of an Augustine. It's all symbolic and allegorical. Except the return. That part's literal. Third, antisemitism. The Jews were expelled from Spain, France, England and Germany at varying times. They were hated throughout Poland, Russia, and the world. They were despised as Christ killers. It simply wasn't in the mental vocabulary of most of the church for hundreds and hundreds of years that indeed, God would have mercy on Israel one day as well and she would return to her land.

But around the time of the Great Awakening, the light began to come on. It was foreseen long before Israel became a nation again, that indeed, she would be brought back to the land. And she was. It has been foreseen that she will turn to Christ. And she will.

Even though not all reformed are dispensationalists. And not all dispensationalists are reformed. I see the two as quite compatible. Dispensational theology from a reformed perspective notes that the Sovereign God of the Universe controls the tides of history and will bring everything to His desired conclusion in precisely the way He laid it out in His Word. Not Israel's disbelief. Not millenia of hating the Jews. NOTHING will stop Him. And so, All Israel will be saved. And when they are, they will be His people and He their God and they will dwell safely in the land that He promised their fathers (stretching all the way to the Euphrates and the River of Egypt).

The birth of Isaac.

No, that was invented by JN Darby via the visions of Margaret MacDonald.

The first time this was presented, I thought it was ignorance. So, I patiently informed otherwise. I shall do so again:

" . . . he [Grant Jeffrey] quotes many who had a definite understanding of the difference between the two phases of our Lord's coming, particularly His coming for His own people prior to the Tribulation and the revealing of the man of sin . . . "

Jeffrey's most important find was his discovery of a statement in an apocalyptic sermon from the fourth century. The author is designated "Pseudo-Ephrem" because there is some question whether or not it was written by Ephrem of Nisibis (c.306-373), a Syrian church father. Some prefer a later date for the sermon (attributed to him) called, "Sermon on the End of the World," suggesting it may have been written sometime between 565 and 627. For our purpose the real date is immaterial, for even allowing it to have been written as late as the seventh century proves that early Christians (1,100 years before John Darby) saw the Rapture happening before the Tribulation.

Here is the statement in English, translated from its Greek and Latin versions that date to that period. Challenging Christians to holy living (always the purpose of rapture teaching), he wrote:

Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? ... All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. 3
--Pseudo-Ephrem, A.D. 372 (emphasis added by La Haye).

There can be no doubt this fourth- (or at the latest seventh-) century Bible scholar saw the saints gathered together by the Lord before the Tribulation. His statement has all the marks of a pre-Tribulation rapture of the saints as distinct from the glorious appearing, which our Lord promised would occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29). Admittedly, Ephrem only saw the Tribulation lasting 42 months or three-and-a-half years (as taught later in the sermon). The fact remains, however, that he saw a pre-Tribulation rapture of the church long before the nineteenth century, which some have

erroneously
claimed

to be the time when such a teaching first arose.

Considering that less than 10 percent of the ancient Christian books ever written have been preserved to our day, we have no doubt that even though the details of the pre-Tribulation rapture were not widely recognized back in the fourth century, there must have been other Bible students besides Ephrem who had discoved the "blessed hope" teaching. . . .

There were also other documented cases where scholars of earlier than the ninetheenth century, discussed a Pre-Trib Rapture.

One current era strident Bible 'expert' offered $500 to anyone who could prove an example of someone discussing such earlier than Darby et al. He lost his $500 and had to withdraw the challenge.

In my case, I shall consider any further trotting out of the Darby straw dog by anyone of our common hereon discussants of that perspective to be an example of deliberately peddling lies and untruths. Further, I shall logg such in my construction on reality as evidence of the degree of flawedness which which they also approach Prophetic Scriptures.

FK, you're my brother in Christ, but I think you're wrong. (I just finished a really good chalice of wine, so let me know if I begin to get snarky.)

I think the first Christians, that is St. Paul's Peeps gathered around the Eucharist. It was central to their ecclesiology. His congregations would not have considered a worship existence outside of the centrality of the Eucharist. I think you can say you think they were wrong, but I don't think you can deny that the Eucharist was at the center of their understanding of what it meant to be church.

I also think that when you abandon the sacrament as so many churches have, you cut the bond that Christ left us, and as St. Paul reminds us, until such time as he returns.

The Last Supper which became the Lord's Supper was not administered or bequeathed to us meaninglessly. The Eucharist is the sacrificed Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. As C.S. Lewis said, "He said Take and Eat, not take and understand."

The most significant theological battle of the Reformation was the understanding of the Eucharist, and because the Reformers could not come to an understanding, unity was broken before it even began.

Calvin said of Zwingli as regards his understanding of it being a purely spiritual memorial, that he tore down the bad at the expense of building up the good. Luther refused to shake Zwingli's hand when he extended it to him at Marlburg (sp?). Luther didn't consider Zwingli a Christian, which I think was high-handed of him, but you can see from this how important it was, and in many churches it's now been completely abandoned. It's not a good idea to not take Christ at His Word regardless of however one chooses to decipher it all.

I've read and heard people refer to the Last Supper and the administration of the Eucharist as a command, but I don't see it that way at all.

He gifted us the Eucharist as this Mystical bond, something we could take in our hands to remind us that 'lo I'm with you until the consummation of the ages.'

To depart from the understanding of the first Christians and St. Paul as regards the centrality of the Eucharist we do at our own peril, and when done will and has taken an enormous ecclesial toll.

Anyway, welcome back. :)

I didn't go anywhere, kosta. No matter though, I appreciate the welcome back and smile just the same.

I agree with you Quix, whole heartedly. But even if NOBODY in the church for hundreds of years taught the truth, should we discount it when it is presented? We didn’t do so with Salvation by grace through faith. The same argument could have stood then if it were a valid one. GOD’s WORD TEACHES THIS AS TRUTH and THAT AND ONLY THAT is why we believe it.

Goodness . . . a wonderful example of humility . . . on the FR religion forum.

I should sit down lest I feel faint . . .

“I was wrong.”

Praise God. Maybe it can catch on.

I agree with you Quix, whole heartedly. But even if NOBODY in the church for hundreds of years taught the truth, should we discount it when it is presented? We didn’t do so with Salvation by grace through faith. The same argument could have stood then if it were a valid one. GOD’s WORD TEACHES THIS AS TRUTH and THAT AND ONLY THAT is why we believe it.

I certainly wholeheartedly agree. I just get weary from the Darby falsehood being foisted on unsuspecting lurkers as though it were true.

MUCH AGREE. Thoroughly true. Thanks.