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To: HarleyD
The promise was to choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham. The one who rules over us is Christ. Those who believe in Christ have been grafted into Abraham linage. Those who do not believe in Christ are not part of Abraham.
THAT Promise, indeed. But there are more promises that God made to Abraham than the greatest promise of the coming King. For example:
Genesis 13
14And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

For how long? Until your seed blows it? Until I change my mind? For 4000 years and then, well, then it belongs to whomever? No. FOREVER.

This promise is reitterated elsewhere to Abraham as an old man. Genesis 17 1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. 15And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. 16And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

So here, we have the land. Many nations. And a son. It is an everlasting covenant. For the descendants part, they must be circumcized. Funny, even today with much of Judaism being secular, most are still circumcized.

And again in Genesis 22:
15And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

And that is just to Abraham Himself. God makes similar promises to Abraham's various descendants. Some are conditional. Some are not. They could have inherited the fulness of the land forever during Joshua's time. God offered it to them and its a lot bigger than the borders it has possessed from Abraham's time til now. They disobeyed and did not meet the conditions of receiving it at that time. But other promises are unconditional and Prophecy after Prophecy speaks of Israel being drawn back into her land during the latter days and there being saved by the grace of God and finally knowing the Messiah who came to save them.

Why wasn't this preached? First, it was. Maybe not widespread, but it was. Second, most folks were illiterate and relied on the priesthood until the 1500s for their lessons. Many priests were illiterate themselves. And those who weren't often looked at prophecy with the methodology of an Augustine. It's all symbolic and allegorical. Except the return. That part's literal. Third, antisemitism. The Jews were expelled from Spain, France, England and Germany at varying times. They were hated throughout Poland, Russia, and the world. They were despised as Christ killers. It simply wasn't in the mental vocabulary of most of the church for hundreds and hundreds of years that indeed, God would have mercy on Israel one day as well and she would return to her land.

But around the time of the Great Awakening, the light began to come on. It was foreseen long before Israel became a nation again, that indeed, she would be brought back to the land. And she was. It has been foreseen that she will turn to Christ. And she will.

Even though not all reformed are dispensationalists. And not all dispensationalists are reformed. I see the two as quite compatible. Dispensational theology from a reformed perspective notes that the Sovereign God of the Universe controls the tides of history and will bring everything to His desired conclusion in precisely the way He laid it out in His Word. Not Israel's disbelief. Not millenia of hating the Jews. NOTHING will stop Him. And so, All Israel will be saved. And when they are, they will be His people and He their God and they will dwell safely in the land that He promised their fathers (stretching all the way to the Euphrates and the River of Egypt).
14,372 posted on 05/09/2007 6:45:13 PM PDT by Blogger
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To: Blogger; Quix; topcat54

As I just posted above, the promise to Abraham was that one day his heir would inherit the entire world (Rom 4:13). It wasn't about physical boarders or boundaries. It wasn't the physical land God was talking about but the spiritual land.

We know from the New Testament this wasn't what was meant at all. The promise was that throughout the earth, God would call His people and it would be through Abraham heir by faith. We see this with the discarding of the old covenant and the establishing of the new.

Divorcing myself from all the pre-, post-, amil- views which I can't keep straight; in my mind the issue is really over what it means that Christ will conquer, reign, and return (primarily return). There are only two possible views; 1) society is improving under Christ's reign until one day, the vast majority of the world are Christians, Jews accept Christ (along with everyone else) and Christ returns, or 2) or Christ's reign is limited to His people and society is devolving until few Christians will be left and Christ returns. (Some feel He has physically returned but we'll leave that one alone. I don't believe it.)

Our friend topcat, if I'm not mistaken, believes in the first position. There are legitimate arguments to be made for position #1. Society is not nearly as bad off as it was in the dark ages and the message is preached around the globe. Whatever blips we see in our life time are just that, blips on a very small screen. We can't see the big picture. While we may be discouraged, we don't know that God may not raise up someone in 50 years who will cause a great revival and turn people's hearts to Him. The times we live in that seems disheartening may be simply setting the stage for a mighty work of God that we are unable to foresee. There is LOTS of biblical support for this argument and we are commanded not to be discouraged for He has overcome the world. God is on His throne. I have a tremendous amount of respect for topcat and this view.

Position 2 would say the world is devolving into chaos and ruin. Things will continue to devolve until Christ returns. This, personally, is my view but I don't hold a dispensationalist view. There is SOME biblical and (mostly) historical evidence for this position but I find it to be the most pragmatic. I believe God is calling out His people and we are walking in a wilderness that He has created so that we learn and grow until called home. Someday, the last Christian will be called and that will be that.

How this devolution of position #2 works itself out I'm not sure but any formulation of eschatology opinion must be tempered with and measured against other established doctrine clearly recorded in scripture. We have a High Priest who intercedes for us after the order of Melchisedec-not Levite. The Levitical priesthood was always corrupt going back to Aaron who built the golden calf that led Israel to sin (and then lied about it). Establishment of some temple to do sacrificial rites is not now and will never be pleasing to God. The sacrifice has been made and God made it for us. We don't rest on works but on faith and His promises that He will do what He has promised.

14,407 posted on 05/10/2007 6:20:28 AM PDT by HarleyD
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