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To: Blogger; Quix; topcat54

As I just posted above, the promise to Abraham was that one day his heir would inherit the entire world (Rom 4:13). It wasn't about physical boarders or boundaries. It wasn't the physical land God was talking about but the spiritual land.

We know from the New Testament this wasn't what was meant at all. The promise was that throughout the earth, God would call His people and it would be through Abraham heir by faith. We see this with the discarding of the old covenant and the establishing of the new.

Divorcing myself from all the pre-, post-, amil- views which I can't keep straight; in my mind the issue is really over what it means that Christ will conquer, reign, and return (primarily return). There are only two possible views; 1) society is improving under Christ's reign until one day, the vast majority of the world are Christians, Jews accept Christ (along with everyone else) and Christ returns, or 2) or Christ's reign is limited to His people and society is devolving until few Christians will be left and Christ returns. (Some feel He has physically returned but we'll leave that one alone. I don't believe it.)

Our friend topcat, if I'm not mistaken, believes in the first position. There are legitimate arguments to be made for position #1. Society is not nearly as bad off as it was in the dark ages and the message is preached around the globe. Whatever blips we see in our life time are just that, blips on a very small screen. We can't see the big picture. While we may be discouraged, we don't know that God may not raise up someone in 50 years who will cause a great revival and turn people's hearts to Him. The times we live in that seems disheartening may be simply setting the stage for a mighty work of God that we are unable to foresee. There is LOTS of biblical support for this argument and we are commanded not to be discouraged for He has overcome the world. God is on His throne. I have a tremendous amount of respect for topcat and this view.

Position 2 would say the world is devolving into chaos and ruin. Things will continue to devolve until Christ returns. This, personally, is my view but I don't hold a dispensationalist view. There is SOME biblical and (mostly) historical evidence for this position but I find it to be the most pragmatic. I believe God is calling out His people and we are walking in a wilderness that He has created so that we learn and grow until called home. Someday, the last Christian will be called and that will be that.

How this devolution of position #2 works itself out I'm not sure but any formulation of eschatology opinion must be tempered with and measured against other established doctrine clearly recorded in scripture. We have a High Priest who intercedes for us after the order of Melchisedec-not Levite. The Levitical priesthood was always corrupt going back to Aaron who built the golden calf that led Israel to sin (and then lied about it). Establishment of some temple to do sacrificial rites is not now and will never be pleasing to God. The sacrifice has been made and God made it for us. We don't rest on works but on faith and His promises that He will do what He has promised.

14,407 posted on 05/10/2007 6:20:28 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

May try to get back to this one. Other priorities at the moment.


14,421 posted on 05/10/2007 6:58:09 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: HarleyD
Genesis 13:14-15 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

As I just posted above, the promise to Abraham was that one day his heir would inherit the entire world (Rom 4:13). It wasn't about physical boarders or boundaries. It wasn't the physical land God was talking about but the spiritual land.

Two chapters later, he spells out the boundaries.

Genesis 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

The promise is repeated through Moses in Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy 11:24 Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be.

Joshua

Chapter) Joshua 1:4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.

Ezekiel

13Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions. 14And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance. 15And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad; 16Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazarhatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran. 17And the border from the sea shall be Hazarenan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side. 18And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side. 19And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward. 20The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side. 21So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel. 22And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

IT IS THE PROMISE OF GOD TO ISRAEL HARLEY AND NO MATTER HOW MUCH THE DENIERS DENY IT, I T W I L L S U R E L Y C O M E T O P A S S!!!!!! Hbr 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

We know from the New Testament this wasn't what was meant at all. The promise was that throughout the earth, God would call His people and it would be through Abraham heir by faith. We see this with the discarding of the old covenant and the establishing of the new.


JEREMIAH 33

14Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. 15In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. 17For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. 19And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, 20Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; 21Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. 22As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Jeremiah 33 is all about the New Covenant. And, it speaks of the land. Jerusalem is a real place. Levites are real people who are ministering. God's prophecies are not nonsensical. They will truly and surely come to pass. His covenant can not be broken, for even when we are faithless, He is faithful for He can not deny Himself.

I have more answers to the things you list here. I believe that you fundamentally misunderstand dispensationalism, Harley. You fundamentally misunderstand WHY the Jews are blessed by God and what dispensationalists have to say about it. I'm not sure you really want to understand. But, if you do, I encourage you to read Zechariah 12-14; Ezekiel 34-48 and beyond. Then, re-read Romans 9-11 in that context. Then we can talk more.
14,452 posted on 05/10/2007 7:03:15 PM PDT by Blogger
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