Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Well, the RCC certainly didn't!
The local churches had the scriptures long before any Council recognized them offically.
water of the womb If Jesus wanted to say "flesh" or "womb" in John 3:5, He would have said so: both words are used in the immediate context.
The word 'flesh' is used in the immediate context of Nicodemos's statement, first using the word 'water' and then talking about the difference between the flesh and the spirit.
Water Baptism isn't anywhere in sight.
What Christ said was to honor the word of God, not Mary He said, "Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it" (Luke 11:28). Mary is first among them.
Mary is never first in anything.
She even 'lost' the Lord (Lk.12:43-44) and couldn't find Him for three days.
Now, how could the 'Queen of Heaven' lose her own son for three entire days!
The queen of heaven that you Roman Catholics 'venerate' is found in Jer.44:18-19, it isn't Mary, who would repudiate such blasphemy!
Peter says ... This is what he says: "Whereunto baptism being of the like form [water], now saveth you also" (1 Peter 3:21).
Yes and the water that saved Noah did not get Noah wet, it killed the rest of the world.
So the water did not purify Noah, it represented death, not purification.
Noah was saved by getting in the Ark,(a type ofChrist) not the water-
Peter is telling you to do likewise.
Thus, Noah's 'baptism' is a figure of the Christian baptism, the water representing death and that is why the christian is immersed and than brought back up, identifying with the death, burial and resurrrection of Christ (Rom.6, 1Cor.15)
The Bible is the book of scripture and it certanily does have scriptural basis-Rev.10:8-10.
I say that because it doesn't have any scriptural basis.
In both cases Jesus speaks to the Church which is the communion of the disciples. Not to the individual disciples, and not to the entire human race.
It would really surprise me that the Catholic view is that the Great Commission is meant for all true believers, members of God's Church. In your system only a select few can lead with any authority, so the average disciple would not appear to be qualified to carry out the Great Commission. Do you say that the Great Commission is specifically directed to a group including you?
This from someone who thinks that John 'represents' the church and thus, Mary is the 'mother' of the church! (LOL!)
The context of Jn.3:4-8 is so clear that even a Roman Catholic could understand it, if they chose to do so.
Nowhere in that passage is baptism referred to.
The word womb is brought up by Nicodemus and Christ states that a man must be born of water (womb)(1st birth) and the Spirit to be born again
Born once-die twice,
Born twice, die once.
As for the Scripture being sufficent, it states that very clearly in 2Tim.3:17
that the man of God may be perfect, thoughly furnished until all good works.
Ofcourse Satan knew Christ was God in the flesh!
God cannot be tempted with sin, but the Second Adam could be.(remember-two natures-one Person)
The temptation was for Christ to use His own Deity and not to depend on the Father (make stones into bread-no mere man could do that).
As for Christ's baptism, that had to do with the offical beginning of His earthly ministry, hence the Holy Spirit and the Father were both present.
McMahon's central point, of the Anabaptists being a "new" theory devised in the 1700s, does not mesh with my studies. The Anabaptists were a problem during the time of Luther. And, as far as I can tell, contrary to what the Catholic Church would have us believe, there are indications of a "shadow" group of Christians outside the formal Church throughout history, who the Anabaptists (rightfully or wrongfully) declare they're associated with. The Baptists just didn't come along. The London Baptist Confession of Faith (1644) is older than the Westminster Confession of Faith (1646). Listen to your elders. :O)
I cannot in the least understand how immersion baptism relates to dispensationalism and I still remain unconvinced about infant baptism. Believe me, I would jump ship on this issue if I didn't think it squared with covenant theology. I think there is more of an argument to be made that this is a Catholic sacramental holdover that didn't command the attention of Luther and Calvin, much like Mary. There were larger issues at the time.
Try Matthew 16:
[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
[19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Jesus Presence in the Eucharist is His Glorious state AFTER the Resurrection.
I think where you are having difficulty is understanding where Jesus prefigures(the dividing of the loaves and fish and the washing of the feet where Jesus shows communion) and institutes the Eucharist(in the Upper room).
Also the heavenly Liturgy is the same in heaven as it is on earth(Mass). “Give us the day our daily bread ON EARTH as it is in HEAVEN”
I wish that every Catholic would understand just how Glorious Mass really is-Heaven comes to earth!Its truly Awesome!
Sadly,I missed all this when I was a Protestant.
The Early Church Fathers “All of them” actually took the real presence for granted,they had great faith even until death.
Perhaps this will help....
You may have noticed that Holy Scripture has many verses regarding the body. What may not be so apparent to you is that many of those verses are prefigurements, or types of the soul.
There are, in fact, deeper meanings of Holy Scripture which must be discerned.
“The LORD said to Moses, “This is the law for the victim of leprosy at the time of his purification. He shall be brought to the priest, who is to go outside the camp to examine him. If the priest finds that the sore of leprosy has healed in the leper, he shall order the man who is to be purified, to get two live, clean birds, as well as some cedar wood, scarlet yarn, and hyssop. The priest shall then order him to slay one of the birds over an earthen vessel with spring water in it. Taking the living bird with the cedar wood, the scarlet yarn and the hyssop, the priest shall dip them all in the blood of the bird that was slain over the spring water, and then sprinkle seven times the man to be purified from his leprosy. When he has thus purified him, he shall let the living bird fly away over the countryside.”
Leviticus 14:1-7
Notice who the instrument of healing of the body is in this verse. It is not a physician but a priest.
Is the primary concern for the priest the preservation of the body or of the salvation of the soul?
These and other verses literally are about healing of the body, but a deeper meaning is that they are types of healing of the spiritual soul, as we shall see in the New Testament.
“When he came down from the mountain, great crowds followed him; and behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, if you will, you can make me clean.” And he stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, “I will; be clean.” And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. And Jesus said to him, “See that you say nothing to any one; but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a proof to the people.”
Matthew 8:2-4
This was a cleansing and healing of the body. Why then did Jesus tell the cleansed leper to show himself to the priest and not to a physician?
Read John Chapter 6. Notice in verses 1-15 there is the story of the multiplication of the loaves and fishes by Jesus, and the feeding of five thousand. This part is about feeding the body which has to be nourished every day. Verses 16-21 is about Jesus walking upon the water, proving that He is GOD. Starting in verse 22 all the way to the end of the chapter, we see the antitype of the type presented to us in the first 15 verses. The key is verse 27,
“Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal.”
John 6:27
Did Jesus say the “symbol” of the food which endures to eternal life?
What is the “food which perishes”?
It is the food which sustains the body until it dies.
It is the loaves and fishes, the “bread” of bodily life of verses 1-15.
Without the “food which perishes”, the body soon perishes.
“I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.”
John 6:48
The “manna in the wilderness” was merely a type or a symbol of what was to come in the New Testament. As you can readily see, the manna type preserved the body for a period of time, but had no effect on the spiritual soul. Remember one of the basic rules of typology is:
The New Testament reality is far superior to the Old Testament type.
So now we must look to this far superior reality of the New Testament.
What is the “food which endures to eternal life”?
Jesus told us what it is,
“This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see, and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.”
John 6:29-35
And yet again Jesus told us what it is,
“This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
John 6:48-51
Did Jesus say it is a symbol of His flesh?
“And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
Luke 22:19
Did Jesus say it is a symbol of His body? Not that I can find anywhere in Scripture.
“For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”
1Corinthians 11:26
This verse clearly said we are to proclaim the Lords death often and continue until He comes again.
How often are we to do this in remembrance of Him?
Never fear for Holy Scripture tells us.
“For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city which is to come. Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.” Hebrews 13:14-15
And:
“And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts.”
Acts 2:46
“And every day in the temple and at home they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.”
Acts 5:42
And:
“For from the rising of the sun, even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation, for my name is great among the Gentiles, says the LORD of hosts.”
Malachi 1:11
“Give us this day our daily bread.”
Matthew 6:11
This is from the prayer that Jesus taught us, the “Our Father”.
It means in totality, bread as food for our bodies and spiritual bread as food for our souls.
We are to continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God.
Every day in every place a clean oblation is offered.
What, or who, is the sacrifice and what is a clean oblation?
It is an offering of praise to GOD, in the Holy Eucharist, the Body, and the Precious Blood of Christ. The Catholic Church offers the sacrifice of praise to GOD all over the world, every day in the Mass.
It has replaced the bloody animal sacrifices of the Old Testament.
That is why it is called a clean oblation.
In Matthew 26:26, didn’t Jesus take bread and say, “Take and eat; this is my body”?
And did he not beseech us to say in the Lords Prayer:
“Give us this day out daily bread”, (both physical for the body, and spiritual for the soul).
Matthew 6:11
How many non-Catholic ecclesial communities offer daily sacrifice, a clean oblation, as is clearly commanded for us to do by Holy Scripture? How many do not even offer sacrifice?
“Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened.
For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.”
1Corinthians 5:7
“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.”
Ephesians 5:1-2
“I have received full payment, and more; I am filled, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.”
Philippians 4:18
Jesus Christ is the “food” which sustains the spiritual soul which lives forever. He is the “bread come down from heaven” as we saw in John chapter six.
Can a mere “symbol” sustain the spiritual soul to eternal life?
Since the manna was the type or symbol of the New Testament reality, that question can be answered by another basic rule of typology:
“An Old Testament type (symbol) never points to a New Testament symbol, but to a reality.”
So obviously the “food which endures to eternal life” cannot be a symbol, but a New Testament reality. It also cannot be a symbol, for another reason. It would violate yet a second basic rule of typology which we have previously discussed:
“The New Testament reality is far superior to the Old Testament type.”
So does this mean that Christ is sacrificed over and over again in the Eucharistic Celebration?
Again, what does Holy Scripture say?
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;”
1Peter 3:18
“The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself.”
Hebrews 7:23-27
Christ was sacrificed only once and for all time. He is both the High Priest and the victim.
Catechism of the Catholic Church # 1366
“The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit: (Christ), our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper ‘on the night when he was betrayed,’ (he wanted) to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.
(Council of Trent (1562): DS 1740; cf. 1 Cor 11:23; Heb 7:24,27.)”
We must remember that GOD is outside of time. Time is a measure of change for the things He has created. Since He never changes, He Himself is outside of time.
Consequently, everything from creation, and before, and for all eternity is now with GOD, including the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. It is a continuous, never ending sacrifice.
How can something that never ends be repeated?
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.”
And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exodus 3:14
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
John 8:58
“And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—”Rise, take up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.”
Matthew 9:1-8
These classic verses graphically show the connection between healing of the body and healing of the soul. Jesus first cleansed the paralytic’s soul, and then He cleansed his body. Pay especial attention to the last line. To whom was authority given? Notice that the very last word in the verses is plural.
In summation:
1. The body needs physical food in order to survive or else it will die.
2. The spiritual soul needs spiritual food in order to avoid spiritual death, the separation from GOD.
3. Spiritual food cannot be a symbolic gesture, simply because a mere symbol could not possibly feed the spiritual soul. Spiritual food is as much a reality as is physical food. It is the antitype of its Old Testament type of the manna in the desert. Recall that an O.T. type never points to a N.T. symbol.
4. Scripture tells us that there will be offered sacrifice every day in every place, a clean oblation.
How can symbolism of a sacrifice be a sacrifice in itself?
5. The bread come down from heaven, Jesus Christ, is that clean oblation, His sacrifice on the cross.
6. Jesus Christ was sacrificed once on the cross for all eternity.
7. Jesus Christ is both the High Priest and the victim, the Paschal Lamb of sacrifice.
8. Since He is High Priest forever (Heb 7:17), He is also the sacrificial Lamb forever (Rev 5:13-14).
9. Since GOD is outside of time, everything is now with Him. That one sacrifice at Calvary, which is always now for GOD, is made present for us during the Eucharistic celebration of the Mass.
10. The Mass is a re-presentation of that one sacrifice. We are re-presented at Calvary.
The Book of Revelation and the Holy Mass
from....
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html#eucharist-IIf
The Book of Revelation shows us glimpses of the heavenly liturgy – Jesus Christ’s once and for all sacrifice eternally present in heaven. This is why the Church has always incorporated the elements that John saw in the heavenly liturgy into her earthly liturgy, for they are one and the same liturgical action of Jesus Christ our High Priest.
Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven’s identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church’s identification on earth.
Rev. 1:10 - John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.
Rev. 1:13 - Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as “alter Christuses” (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 - there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 - there are priests (”presbyteroi”) in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus’ eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8 - heaven’s liturgical chant “Holy, Holy, Holy” is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8 - the various antiphonal chants in the heavenly liturgy are similar to those used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:1 - there is a book or scroll of God’s word in heaven. This is reflected in the Liturgy of the Word at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:6 and throughout - heaven’s description of Jesus as the “Lamb” is the same as the description of Jesus as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 - heaven’s emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 - there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 - heaven’s concluding liturgical prayer “Amen” is the same as is used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 6:9 - the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church’s tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars.
Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 - there is the sign of the cross (”tau”) in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 7:9; 14:6 - the catholicity or universality of heaven as God’s family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.
Rev. 8:1 - the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 - there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.
Rev. 11:12 - the phrase “come up here” is similar to the priest’s charge to “lift up your hearts” at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 - heaven’s emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:7 - heaven’s emphasis on the Archangel Michael’s intercession is the same as the concluding prayers at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 14:4 - there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 - there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ’s sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:3-4 - there is the recitation of the “Gloria” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:5 - there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 17, 19:9 - the consummation of the Lamb at heaven’s marriage supper is the same as the Lamb’s supper in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 - there is the recitation of the “Alleluia” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.
Time for work
I wish you a Blessed Day!
Peter explains that the 'rock' is Christ, not himself. (1Pe.2:6)
Paul states that no other foundation can be laid but that on Christ (1Cor.3)
The 'rock' that the church would be built on was Peter's confession of faith, that Christ was the Son of God.
Ofcourse, Peter being Peter, gets to big for his britches and has to be rebuked by Christ a few verses later, when he states that Christ should not go to the Cross.
Christ than likens him to Satan.
But those verses the Roman Catholics always seem to miss.
Right, two natures in perfect harmony (not exactly a new "Adam" who was only one nature in one person, none of which was divine). But, you will tell me that my Church teaches that Christ was "New Adam." I know. I don't see it that way. I guess I am un-orthodox Orthodox, Leo Tolstoy's style.
The devil doubted that Christ was a perfect God and a perfect man in one Person. If he believed it, he would not have tried to tempt Him.
The temptation was for Christ to use His own Deity and not to depend on the Father (make stones into bread-no mere man could do that)...As for Christ's baptism, that had to do with the offical beginning of His earthly ministry, hence the Holy Spirit and the Father were both present
The Holy Trinity is eternally one in essence and inseparably Father-Son-Holy Spirit. There was never a "time" when the Word was not with the Father, or the Holy Spirit with them. Christ's "own" divinity is not "His" own; there is only one divinity, one nature that is divine.
The Gospel was written without a clear understanding or revelation of the Holy Trinity (thus the refrences to HS descending on Christ at Baptism and "leading" Him intot he desert), just as the Apostles did not fully believe or understand Christ's mission or, for that matter, who He really was, from the beginning.
That gradually changed in time.
Correction
“Thy will be done in EARTH as it is in Heaven”
OOPS,Sorry about that
Haven't missed them. Just do not see how the scriptural cites you provide necessarily contradict the idea of a divinely appointed vicar of Christ on earth.
I must agree with you here, FK. Their faith was a gradual revelation, as it is for all of us (except, of course, for +Paul).
Therefore, I cannot give Mary credit for kick-starting Jesus' ministry. Jesus was going to begin when it was correct for Jesus to begin according to God's perfect plan, not at the prodding by one of us
But, then, you can't give credit to anyone. The fact is, Mary was instrumemntal by her presence in carrying out what was needed.
The only way you can take credit away is if you believe, as I think you do, that we have been programmed to obey (or disobey).
But, God does give us choices, FK. We are free, by His permission, and therefore responsible for our actions. It is always a matter of obedience to God, or disobedience. And, as far as we can tell, Mary always obeyed, to her credit.
Even at Incarnation, she was not impregnated by force, but by consent. God does not force Himself on anyone. Love wins you over lovingly, not forcefully.
Actually, I don't recall that at all. :) Mary didn't adopt John, it was the other way around
Agree. The man was always the head of the woman (cf 1 Cor 11:3), but respectfully, of course. For instance, Orthodox nuns will bless you if asked. This is followed by a kiss of the hand that blessed you, whether it is a priest or a nun, but she will, in turn, after her hand is kissed, kiss a man's hand although they are the one's blessing him.
I define "core" as that knowledge which is necessary, but not sufficient, to believe and have faith in the correct God.
I would say, that is a fairly accurate definition.
I agree that Mary is a role model and we are not told of her sins, but that does not make her perfect and sinless
The Orthodox teaching is that Mary accepted the will of God in perfect obedience and was cleansed of all sin at the moment of Incarnation, not when she was conceived by her parents. At that moment all her previous sins, if any, were erased and from there on, full of grace, she chose not to sin but to obey until she died.
“The man was always the head of the woman (cf 1 Cor 11:3), but respectfully, of course. For instance, Orthodox nuns will bless you if asked. This is followed by a kiss of the hand that blessed you, whether it is a priest or a nun, but she will, in turn, after her hand is kissed, kiss a man’s hand although they are the one’s blessing him.”
This is very true.I so love our nuns...even when they are lecturing me (which is just about every time I see them. Many of my fondest memories of Greece are of the times I spent with them. Just thinking of them makes me smile. What a blessing they are to us!
Well, because the bible tells us that it is an "if-then" relationship. Of course, in order to choose to obey God one must believe in Him, so faith is required, but faith is only the first step.
The Church will give him grace. Men will give him grace
Not really, FK, and I think you know that but just want to play "devil's advocate". :) Grace comes from and through sacraments (Holy Spirit). We (and I mean Catholic/Orthodox) never give the power of grace to men. We trust and believe with all our hearts that the sacraments are true and their effect comes from the Holy Spirit, not men.
I think what Alex is saying is that a child will receive spiritual nourishment's in the Church, made possible through grace in sacraments received, liturgical life or prayer and worship and bible study.
It is more likely in other words that this child will lead a more Christian life than soemone who grew up in the streets and never attend a church.
As for baptism cleansing us from the "original sin," the (Roman) Catholic Church is actually 'modifying' its position and bringing it closer to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, which has remained unchanged from the beginning: that Baptism simply brings a child into the Church (adoption).
The Pope recently sent a letter, just short of an official Epistle, basically committing the Limbo to oblivion, and adopting the same teaching as the Orthodox have, that unbaptized babies who die before being baptized can be saved by God's mercy alone, as they have not committed any sin. It is a hope and trust in merciful and just God, but it is not a certain knowledge, because the Scripture is silent on that issue.
I contend that it is that Jesus was "sent" under complete and total authority. Under this same authority, Jesus sent His disciples into the world.
I think Alex is correct. That is a clear indication that God commissioned Apostles as clergy, not everyone. In Revelation, the Apostles serve as judges (of the 12 tribes of Israel...ooops, but that's another story...), and elsewhere in the NT it is made clear that not all are Apostles, and teachers, but that the Church has a hierarchy.
What amazes me is that the Protestants accept pastorship of ordinary men, but refuse the pastorship of those who succeeded Apostles in direct line of succession. I think it's just anti-Romish bias.
No, you got it right the first time. I am merely describing from the point of view of the faithful, who does not have the divine TIVO and is effecting his own election by his free will.
OK, then the faithful effect their own elections by using their free wills. While I obviously respectfully disagree, I really do appreciate your candor and straightforwardness. We would say that election is based solely on the dominion of the sovereignty of God.
In most places, the scripture adopts the same view, because it is more important to tell the faithful to make the right choice than to instill augustinianism in him.
You refer to outward calls, and there are many in scripture, and they are all good. When I witness to prospects I often quote outward calls, and it is good. However, there ARE deeper spiritual truths that are learned during sanctification. We believe that some of Saint Augustine's teachings are among them. :)
FK: "... new slavery is NOT voluntary"
Of course it is. You choose to repent, grow in faith and obey the Gospel.
I am speaking of ultimate credit, which belongs to God alone. Yes, we make the choices you illustrate, but these all belong to God. The glory only goes to God.
AMEN! AMEN!
I agree with you basically but not specifically..
The Holy Spirit does visit with "visions".. which are not actual facts.. They are more personal and long lasting than a fact.. Because that is WHY Jesus' left the Holy Spirit with us.. As a/the paraclete(a helper, one that comes alongside to help.. a comforter)..
I,m not looking to argue this,only to explain the Catholic position
It was GOD Himself through the Angel Gabriel in Luke 1:28. If GOD said “Hail, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee”, in the same verse, could Mary have been ‘full of grace’ or ‘blessed’ or have the ‘Lord with her’, had she been stained by original sin? If you say ‘yes’ to that one, then please explain your answer to me?
By being “full of Grace”, and being told “the Lord is with thee”, is she not higher than Eve who was never told these things? If so, was Eve created with original sin? No? Then why would anyone think Mary, who is higher than Eve, was born with original sin? Wouldn’t having original sin make Mary lower than Eve? Eve is a “type” of Mary, who is the “antitype”. “Types” are always inferior to “antitypes” and always point to a much greater reality, and never to a symbol.
We Believe that God preserved Mary from the stain of original sin because she was to be the mother of His Son.
It follows that He will also have preserved Mary from the stain of any actual sin.
As the goodness of the parents brings honor to their children,,so,too, does the sinfulness of the parents bring shame to their children.
But it is NOT fitting that the Mother of God should bring shame to Her divine son.Therefor.God preserved Mary from any personal sin,wether mortal or venial.
Through the Grace of God,which was infused into her soul at the moment of her conception,at the very instant He created her soul and united it to her body. He did it in virtue of the merits of Christ.
No descendant of Adam receives the Grace of God except through the merits of Christ.
The Mother of Christ was no exception to this law of Grace.
Like every other human being who is descended of carnal generation from Adam,the blessed virgin Mary need to be redeemed by the blood of Christ,But wheras every other human being needs to be cleansed from the stain of original sin-which has contracted by way of carnal generation from Adam-the virgin Mary did NOT need to be cleansed from original sin.Through the Grace of Christ she was preserved from the stain of sin.
Mary is closer to Christ than any other human being,because He took flesh from her and dwelt in her womb.
The closer one is to Christ,the source of all Grace,the greater degree of Grace one receives from Christ.Mary,therefor,received from Christ a fullness of Grace not granted to any other creature.
Her Immaculate Conception made her worthy to be Mother of God
I wish you a Blessed day!
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