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To: kosta50
The Orthodox teaching is that Mary accepted the will of God in perfect obedience and was cleansed of all sin at the moment of Incarnation, not when she was conceived by her parents. At that moment all her previous sins, if any, were erased and from there on, full of grace, she chose not to sin but to obey until she died.

I,m not looking to argue this,only to explain the Catholic position

It was GOD Himself through the Angel Gabriel in Luke 1:28. If GOD said “Hail, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee”, in the same verse, could Mary have been ‘full of grace’ or ‘blessed’ or have the ‘Lord with her’, had she been stained by original sin? If you say ‘yes’ to that one, then please explain your answer to me?
By being “full of Grace”, and being told “the Lord is with thee”, is she not higher than Eve who was never told these things? If so, was Eve created with original sin? No? Then why would anyone think Mary, who is higher than Eve, was born with original sin? Wouldn’t having original sin make Mary lower than Eve? Eve is a “type” of Mary, who is the “antitype”. “Types” are always inferior to “antitypes” and always point to a much greater reality, and never to a symbol.

We Believe that God preserved Mary from the stain of original sin because she was to be the mother of His Son.
It follows that He will also have preserved Mary from the stain of any actual sin.
As the goodness of the parents brings honor to their children,,so,too, does the sinfulness of the parents bring shame to their children.
But it is NOT fitting that the Mother of God should bring shame to Her divine son.Therefor.God preserved Mary from any personal sin,wether mortal or venial.
Through the Grace of God,which was infused into her soul at the moment of her conception,at the very instant He created her soul and united it to her body. He did it in virtue of the merits of Christ.
No descendant of Adam receives the Grace of God except through the merits of Christ.
The Mother of Christ was no exception to this law of Grace.
Like every other human being who is descended of carnal generation from Adam,the blessed virgin Mary need to be redeemed by the blood of Christ,But wheras every other human being needs to be cleansed from the stain of original sin-which has contracted by way of carnal generation from Adam-the virgin Mary did NOT need to be cleansed from original sin.Through the Grace of Christ she was preserved from the stain of sin.
Mary is closer to Christ than any other human being,because He took flesh from her and dwelt in her womb.
The closer one is to Christ,the source of all Grace,the greater degree of Grace one receives from Christ.Mary,therefor,received from Christ a fullness of Grace not granted to any other creature.
Her Immaculate Conception made her worthy to be Mother of God

I wish you a Blessed day!

13,660 posted on 04/27/2007 10:31:17 AM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: stfassisi; kosta50

At the risk of answering for Kosta, you should understand that the entire concept of “Original Sin” and thus, necessarily, the “Immaculate Conception” are not at all within the consensus Patrum and are and have been consistently rejected by the Christian East. As you of course know, even Aquinas himself rejected the Immaculate Conception. Blessed Augustine didn’t understand Greek and thus, rather than having the benefit of the writings of the earlier Fathers, it seems he drew on his Manichean youth for many of his notions, including Original Sin. It is quite correct to say that the Most Holy Theotokos was conceived without Original Sin. Neither were any of us. She was however fully human and thus born subject to the distortions wrought in human nature by the Sin of Adam. To say otherwise makes her something other than human (a “goddess” perhaps?)and that notion would have, I am sure you will agree, a rather profound effect on our Christology.

What Kosta has written is patristic. What you have advanced is not.


13,661 posted on 04/27/2007 3:31:22 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: stfassisi
Sorry ofr a belated reply. I was off the Matrix (FR) for about 48 hours and it was good to see the rest of the world out there. :)

I see that Kolokotronis replied, for which I am very grateful. I couldn't have answer any better.

It was GOD Himself through the Angel Gabriel in Luke 1:28. If GOD said “Hail, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee”, in the same verse, could Mary have been ‘full of grace’ or ‘blessed’ or have the ‘Lord with her’, had she been stained by original sin?

Brother, our Churches have been at this for a long time and this is going to be a tough one. We have learned, despite our few but very profound theological differences, to love one another and in many ways and on many occasions , act as if there has never been a millennial split between us.

I will answer you insofar as my Church teaches it, and has taught forever, and everywhere.

We did not inherit our ancestral parent's 'sin,' but their mortal nature, which is a consequence of their sin. Thus, the only thing we have from the is their mortality, and mortality is not sin, but an effect of sin.

Grace does not make us immortal. The grace we receive at Holy Baptism is adoption into the Church, where we can, in Eucharistic life, return to God and become immortal. Our Lord did not die on the Cross to make us immortal, but to make it possible for us to become immortal. As we sing nowadays "Christ is Risen from the dead, trampling death by death, and to those in graves bestowing life."

The Orthodox teach and have always taught that Mary was made favorable to God as the Annunciation occurred. Immacyulate Conception is meaningless to us, because she was still mortal.

Adam and Eve were created neither mortal nor immortal. I don't think that was the case with the "Second Eve." We believe that she died. The Catholic Curch is silent on that.

One Catholic Freeper once said that she was "baptized" at her own conception. That would not make her a "goddess" any more than it make us, but that would certainly enable her to choose not to sin.

I actually don't have a problem with that, but it is not Scriptural, and there is no consensus patrum on that issue. What evidence do we have that she received grace at her own conception?

We do know that when the Angel addressed her she was full of grace. The rest is speculation.

13,698 posted on 04/28/2007 5:40:55 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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