I must agree with you here, FK. Their faith was a gradual revelation, as it is for all of us (except, of course, for +Paul).
Therefore, I cannot give Mary credit for kick-starting Jesus' ministry. Jesus was going to begin when it was correct for Jesus to begin according to God's perfect plan, not at the prodding by one of us
But, then, you can't give credit to anyone. The fact is, Mary was instrumemntal by her presence in carrying out what was needed.
The only way you can take credit away is if you believe, as I think you do, that we have been programmed to obey (or disobey).
But, God does give us choices, FK. We are free, by His permission, and therefore responsible for our actions. It is always a matter of obedience to God, or disobedience. And, as far as we can tell, Mary always obeyed, to her credit.
Even at Incarnation, she was not impregnated by force, but by consent. God does not force Himself on anyone. Love wins you over lovingly, not forcefully.
Actually, I don't recall that at all. :) Mary didn't adopt John, it was the other way around
Agree. The man was always the head of the woman (cf 1 Cor 11:3), but respectfully, of course. For instance, Orthodox nuns will bless you if asked. This is followed by a kiss of the hand that blessed you, whether it is a priest or a nun, but she will, in turn, after her hand is kissed, kiss a man's hand although they are the one's blessing him.
I define "core" as that knowledge which is necessary, but not sufficient, to believe and have faith in the correct God.
I would say, that is a fairly accurate definition.
I agree that Mary is a role model and we are not told of her sins, but that does not make her perfect and sinless
The Orthodox teaching is that Mary accepted the will of God in perfect obedience and was cleansed of all sin at the moment of Incarnation, not when she was conceived by her parents. At that moment all her previous sins, if any, were erased and from there on, full of grace, she chose not to sin but to obey until she died.
“The man was always the head of the woman (cf 1 Cor 11:3), but respectfully, of course. For instance, Orthodox nuns will bless you if asked. This is followed by a kiss of the hand that blessed you, whether it is a priest or a nun, but she will, in turn, after her hand is kissed, kiss a man’s hand although they are the one’s blessing him.”
This is very true.I so love our nuns...even when they are lecturing me (which is just about every time I see them. Many of my fondest memories of Greece are of the times I spent with them. Just thinking of them makes me smile. What a blessing they are to us!
I,m not looking to argue this,only to explain the Catholic position
It was GOD Himself through the Angel Gabriel in Luke 1:28. If GOD said “Hail, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee”, in the same verse, could Mary have been ‘full of grace’ or ‘blessed’ or have the ‘Lord with her’, had she been stained by original sin? If you say ‘yes’ to that one, then please explain your answer to me?
By being “full of Grace”, and being told “the Lord is with thee”, is she not higher than Eve who was never told these things? If so, was Eve created with original sin? No? Then why would anyone think Mary, who is higher than Eve, was born with original sin? Wouldn’t having original sin make Mary lower than Eve? Eve is a “type” of Mary, who is the “antitype”. “Types” are always inferior to “antitypes” and always point to a much greater reality, and never to a symbol.
We Believe that God preserved Mary from the stain of original sin because she was to be the mother of His Son.
It follows that He will also have preserved Mary from the stain of any actual sin.
As the goodness of the parents brings honor to their children,,so,too, does the sinfulness of the parents bring shame to their children.
But it is NOT fitting that the Mother of God should bring shame to Her divine son.Therefor.God preserved Mary from any personal sin,wether mortal or venial.
Through the Grace of God,which was infused into her soul at the moment of her conception,at the very instant He created her soul and united it to her body. He did it in virtue of the merits of Christ.
No descendant of Adam receives the Grace of God except through the merits of Christ.
The Mother of Christ was no exception to this law of Grace.
Like every other human being who is descended of carnal generation from Adam,the blessed virgin Mary need to be redeemed by the blood of Christ,But wheras every other human being needs to be cleansed from the stain of original sin-which has contracted by way of carnal generation from Adam-the virgin Mary did NOT need to be cleansed from original sin.Through the Grace of Christ she was preserved from the stain of sin.
Mary is closer to Christ than any other human being,because He took flesh from her and dwelt in her womb.
The closer one is to Christ,the source of all Grace,the greater degree of Grace one receives from Christ.Mary,therefor,received from Christ a fullness of Grace not granted to any other creature.
Her Immaculate Conception made her worthy to be Mother of God
I wish you a Blessed day!
But, then, you can't give credit to anyone. The fact is, Mary was instrumental by her presence in carrying out what was needed.
I don't give any "ultimate" credit to anyone outside of God for anything good. That includes Paul, the rest of the Apostles, Luther, Calvin, and everyone else. Now, in my daily life, I certainly give "secondary" credit to those who are kind to me, etc., and to all the aforementioned people, posthumously. The difference is that in the descriptions of Mary and comments I have seen about her here, I get the idea that "ultimate" credit is being given to Mary. That would explain the level of veneration that I see given to her.
She was "instrumental" in that she was used as an instrument by God, the same as the rest of us are. She WAS chosen for an extraordinarily important task, and it is fine to honor her, but it sounds to me like the Apostolic idea is that we "owe" Mary because we are so fortunate that she said "yes". I strongly disagree. God chose Mary first, she did not choose God first. God always gets what He wants.
The only way you can take credit away is if you believe, as I think you do, that we have been programmed to obey (or disobey).
It depends on what "programmed" means. God does not "zap" people to cause them to sin, He leaves them alone, knowing that they will sin. Consider the crucifixion itself. Without it, nobody goes to Heaven. Did God "program" it? (I say "Yes".) Was it "luck"? (I say "No".) Did God "want" it to happen? ("Yes", in the sense that it was part of God's plan, and necessary for the salvation of His children.)
But, God does give us choices, FK. We are free, by His permission, and therefore responsible for our actions. It is always a matter of obedience to God, or disobedience. And, as far as we can tell, Mary always obeyed, to her credit.
Aside from not being sure about what you mean by "It", there is a way I can agree with all of this. :)
Even at Incarnation, she was not impregnated by force, but by consent. God does not force Himself on anyone. Love wins you over lovingly, not forcefully.
Yes, and when God wants to win someone over lovingly, He doesn't fool around. :) God always wins, He is not dependent on the random chance of human decision. It is neither force nor random chance because God changes the heart.
For instance, Orthodox nuns will bless you if asked. This is followed by a kiss of the hand that blessed you, whether it is a priest or a nun, but she will, in turn, after her hand is kissed, kiss a man's hand although they are the one's blessing him.
What a gracious gesture of humility. Very impressive.
The Orthodox teaching is that Mary accepted the will of God in perfect obedience and was cleansed of all sin at the moment of Incarnation, not when she was conceived by her parents. At that moment all her previous sins, if any, were erased and from there on, full of grace, she chose not to sin but to obey until she died.
If Mary was cleansed of "ALL" sin at Incarnation, and never personally sinned again (if ever), then what did she need Jesus to die on the cross for? Or, how did she benefit from it?