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To: kosta50; HarleyD; Kolokotronis; Quix; kawaii; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights
FK: "Therefore, I cannot give Mary credit for kick-starting Jesus' ministry. Jesus was going to begin when it was correct for Jesus to begin according to God's perfect plan, not at the prodding by one of us."

But, then, you can't give credit to anyone. The fact is, Mary was instrumental by her presence in carrying out what was needed.

I don't give any "ultimate" credit to anyone outside of God for anything good. That includes Paul, the rest of the Apostles, Luther, Calvin, and everyone else. Now, in my daily life, I certainly give "secondary" credit to those who are kind to me, etc., and to all the aforementioned people, posthumously. The difference is that in the descriptions of Mary and comments I have seen about her here, I get the idea that "ultimate" credit is being given to Mary. That would explain the level of veneration that I see given to her.

She was "instrumental" in that she was used as an instrument by God, the same as the rest of us are. She WAS chosen for an extraordinarily important task, and it is fine to honor her, but it sounds to me like the Apostolic idea is that we "owe" Mary because we are so fortunate that she said "yes". I strongly disagree. God chose Mary first, she did not choose God first. God always gets what He wants.

The only way you can take credit away is if you believe, as I think you do, that we have been programmed to obey (or disobey).

It depends on what "programmed" means. God does not "zap" people to cause them to sin, He leaves them alone, knowing that they will sin. Consider the crucifixion itself. Without it, nobody goes to Heaven. Did God "program" it? (I say "Yes".) Was it "luck"? (I say "No".) Did God "want" it to happen? ("Yes", in the sense that it was part of God's plan, and necessary for the salvation of His children.)

But, God does give us choices, FK. We are free, by His permission, and therefore responsible for our actions. It is always a matter of obedience to God, or disobedience. And, as far as we can tell, Mary always obeyed, to her credit.

Aside from not being sure about what you mean by "It", there is a way I can agree with all of this. :)

Even at Incarnation, she was not impregnated by force, but by consent. God does not force Himself on anyone. Love wins you over lovingly, not forcefully.

Yes, and when God wants to win someone over lovingly, He doesn't fool around. :) God always wins, He is not dependent on the random chance of human decision. It is neither force nor random chance because God changes the heart.

For instance, Orthodox nuns will bless you if asked. This is followed by a kiss of the hand that blessed you, whether it is a priest or a nun, but she will, in turn, after her hand is kissed, kiss a man's hand although they are the one's blessing him.

What a gracious gesture of humility. Very impressive.

The Orthodox teaching is that Mary accepted the will of God in perfect obedience and was cleansed of all sin at the moment of Incarnation, not when she was conceived by her parents. At that moment all her previous sins, if any, were erased and from there on, full of grace, she chose not to sin but to obey until she died.

If Mary was cleansed of "ALL" sin at Incarnation, and never personally sinned again (if ever), then what did she need Jesus to die on the cross for? Or, how did she benefit from it?

14,081 posted on 05/06/2007 10:51:44 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Kolokotronis; Quix; kawaii; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights
The difference is that in the descriptions of Mary and comments I have seen about her here, I get the idea that "ultimate" credit is being given to Mary. That would explain the level of veneration that I see given to her

Some people find greater affinity for the lives of their saint role-models; then others. Some people are moved by Mary to the point of longion for her as the kind of a human being we all could only wish to be. Sometimes, they express that longing in a way that seems idolatrous, but I can assure you that no Orthodox Christian would tell you she is divine, even if they prostrate themsleves before her icon.

14,103 posted on 05/07/2007 9:26:47 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Kolokotronis; Quix; kawaii; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights
If Mary was cleansed of "ALL" sin at Incarnation, and never personally sinned again (if ever), then what did she need Jesus to die on the cross for? Or, how did she benefit from it?

So that she may be resurrected.

14,108 posted on 05/07/2007 9:57:55 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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