THE DOCTRINE OF ABSOLUTE PREDESTINATION by Jerome Zancius 1516 - 1590

http://www.ondoctrine.com/2zan0002.htm ^ | 12/02/06 | ALPHA-8-25-02

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JEROME ZANCHIUS February 2, 1516 - November 19, 1590

Born Jerome Zanchi in Alazano, Italy, his parents died when he was fourteen at which time he entered the monastery of the Augustinian Order of Regular Canons. He was taught by Peter Martyr Vermigli, the greatest of the Italian Reformers. In 1551 he left Italy and accepted the professorship of Old Testament at the college of St. Thomas in Strasbourg. In 1553, Peter Martyr joined the College also. Zanchius remained at the College after Peter Martyr left for Zurich in 1553. In 1561, charges were brought against Zanchius by Johann Marbach of which he was exonerated.

In 1563 he left the College and pastored the Italian Protestand congregation in the Grisons in the city of Chiavenna. In 1568 he accepted the profesorship of theology at the University of Heidelberg. He produced many of his works at this time. With the accession of Ludwig VI, Lutheran dominance came to Heidelberg and Zanchius left for Neustadt. He remained there until his death while on a visit to Heidelberg.

THE DOCTRINE OF ABSOLUTE PREDESTINATION

STATED AND ASSERTED Translated from the Latin of JEROM ZANCHIUS by AUGUSTUS MONTAGUE TOPLADY, A.B. THE SOVEREIGN GRACE UNION: HENRY ATHERTON, Honorary General Secretary. THE PARSONAGE, 98, CAMBERWELL GROVE, LONDON, S.E. 5 1930

Chapter 1: Terms Explained Chapter 2: Doctrine relative to all men Chapter 3: Doctrine relative to the Elect Chapter 4: Doctrine relative to the Reprobate Chapter 5 Whether Predestination ought to be Preached and Why

CHAPTER I

WHEREIN THE TERMS COMMONLY MADE USE OF IN TREATING OF THIS SUBJECT ARE DEFINED AND EXPLAINED.

HAVING considered the attributes of God as laid down in Scripture, and so far cleared our way to the doctrine of predestination, I shall, before I enter further on the subject, explain the principal terms generally made use of when treating of it, and settle their true meaning. In discoursing on the Divine decrees, mention is frequently made of God's love and hatred, of election and reprobation, and of the Divine purpose, foreknowledge and predestination, each of which we shall distinctly and briefly consider. I.-When love is predicated of God, we do not mean that He is possessed of it as a passion or affection. In us it is such, but if, considered in that sense, it should be ascribed to the Deity, it would be utterly subversive of the simplicity, perfection and independency of His being. Love, therefore, when attributed to Him, signifies- (1) His eternal benevolence, i.e., His everlasting will, purpose and determination to deliver, bless and save His people. Of this, no good works wrought by them are in any sense the cause. Neither are even the merits of Christ Himself to be considered as any way moving or exciting this good will of God to His elect, since the gift of Christ, to be their Mediator and Redeemer, is itself an effect of this free and eternal favour borne to them by God the Father (John iii. 16). His love towards them arises merely from "the good pleasure of His own will," without the least regard to anything ad extra or out of Himself. (2) The term implies complacency, delight and approbation. With this love God cannot love even His elect as considered in themselves, because in that view they are guilty, polluted sinners, but they were, from all eternity, objects of it, as they stood united to Christ and partakers of His righteousness. (3) Love implies actual beneficence, which, properly speaking, is nothing else than the effect or accomplishment of the other two: those are the cause of this. This actual beneficence respects all blessings, whether of a temporal, spiritual or eternal nature. Temporal good things are indeed indiscriminately bestowed in a greater or less degree on all, whether elect or reprobate, but they are given in a covenant way and as blessings to the elect only, to whom also the other benefits respecting grace and glory are peculiar. And this love of beneficence, no less than that of benevolence and complacency, is absolutely free, and irrespective of any worthiness in man. II.-When hatred is ascribed to God, it implies (1) a negation of benevolence, or a resolution not to have mercy on such and such men, nor to endue them with any of those graces which stand connected with eternal life. So, "Esau have I hated" (Rom. ix.), i.e., "I did, from all eternity, determine within Myself not to have mercy on him." The sole cause of which awful negation is not merely the unworthiness of the persons hated, but the sovereignty and freedom of the Divine will. (2) It denotes displeasure and dislike, for sinners who are not interested in Christ cannot but be infinitely displeasing to and loathsome in the sight of eternal purity. (3) It signifies a positive will to punish and destroy the reprobate for their sins, of which will, the infliction of misery upon them hereafter, is but the necessary effect and actual execution. III.-The term election, that so very frequently occurs in Scripture, is there taken in a fourfold sense, and most commonly signifies (1) "That eternal, sovereign, unconditional, particular and immutable act of God where He selected some from among all mankind and of every nation under heaven to be redeemed and everlastingly saved by Christ." (2) It sometimes and more rarely signifies "that gracious and almighty act of the Divine Spirit, whereby God actually and visibly separates His elect from the world by effectual calling." This is nothing but the manifestation and partial fulfilment of the former election, and by it the objects of predestinating grace are sensibly led into the communion of saints, and visibly added to the number of God's declared professing people. Of this our Lord makes mention: "Because I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you" (John xv. 19). Where it should seem the choice spoken of does not refer so much to God's eternal, immanent act of election as His open manifest one, whereby He powerfully and efficaciously called the disciples forth from the world of the unconverted, and quickened them from above in conversion. (3) By election is sometimes meant, "God's taking a whole nation, community or body of men into external covenant with Himself by giving them the advantage of revelation, or His written word, as the rule of their belief and practice, when other nations are without it." In this sense the whole body of the Jewish nation was indiscriminately called elect, because that "unto them were committed the oracles of God" (Deut. vii. 6). Now all that are thus elected are not therefore necessarily saved, but many of them may be, and are, reprobates, as those of whom our Lord says (Matt. xiii. 20), that they "hear the word, and anon with joy receive it," etc. And the apostle says, "They went out from us" (i.e., being favoured with the same Gospel revelation we were, they professed themselves true believers, no less than we), "but they were not of us" (i.e., they were not, with us, chosen of God unto everlasting life, nor did they ever in reality possess that faith of His operation which He gave to us, for if they had in this sense "been of us, they would, no doubt, have continued with us" (1 John ii. 19), they would have manifested the sincerity of their professions and the truth of their conversion by enduring to the end and being saved. And even this external revelation, though it is not necessarily connected with eternal happiness, is nevertheless productive of very many and great advantages to the people and places where it is vouchsafed, and is made known to some nations and kept back* from others, "according to the good pleasure of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will." * See Psailm cxlvii. 19, 20. (4) And, lastly, election sometimes signifies "the temporary designation of some person or persons to the filling up some particular station in the visible church or office in civil life." So Judas was chosen to the apostleship (John vi. 70), and Saul to be the king of Israel (1 Sam. x. 24). Thus much for the use of the word election. IV.-On the contrary, reprobation denotes either (1) God's eternal preterition of some men, when He chose others to glory, and His predestination of them to fill up the measure of their iniquities and then to receive the just punishment of their crimes, even "destruction from tbe presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power." This is the primary, most obvious and most frequent sense in which the word is used. It may like wisesignify (2) God's forbearing to call by His grace those whom He hath thus ordained to condemnation, but this is only a temporary preterition, and a consequence of that which was from eternity. (3) And, lastly, the word may be taken in another sense as denoting God's refusal to grant to some nations the light of the Gospel revelation. This may be considered as a kind of national reprobation, which yet does not imply that every individual person who lives in such a country must therefore unavoidably perish for ever, any more than that every individual who lives in a land called Christian is therefore in a state of salvation. There are, no doubt, elect persons among the former as well as reprobate ones among the latter. By a very little attention to the context any reader may easily discover in which of these several senses the words elect and reprobate are used whenever they occur in Scripture. V.-Mention is frequently made in Scripture of the purpose* of God, which is no other than His gracious intention from eternity of making His elect everlastingly happy in Christ. * The purpose of God does not seem to differ at all from predestination, that being, as well as this, an eternal, free and unchangeable act of His will. Besides, the word "purpose," wben predicated of God in the New Testament, always denotes His design of saving His elect, and that only (Rom. viii. 28, ix. 11; Eph. i. 11, iii. 11; 2 Tim. i. 9). As does the term "predestination," which throughout the whole New Testament never signifies the appointment of the non-elect to wrath, but singly and solely the fore-appointment of the elect to grace and glory, though, in common theological writings, predestination is spoken of as extending to whatever God does, both in a way of permission and efficiency, as, in the utmost sense of the term, it does. It is worthy of the reader's notice that the original word which we render purpose, signifies not only an appointment, but a fore-appointment, and such a fore-appointment as is efficacious and cannot be obstructed, but shall most assuredly issue in a full accomplishment, which gave occasion to the following judicious remark of a late learned writer: "a Paulo saepe usurpatur in electionis negotio, ad designandum consilium hoc Dei non esse inanem quandam et inefficacem velleitatem; sed constans, determinatum, et immutabile Dei propositum. Vox enim est efficaciae summae, ut notant grammatici veteres; et signate vocatur a Paulo, consilium illius, qui efficaciter omnia operatur ex beneplacito suo." -Turretin. Institut. Tom. 1, loc. 4, quaest. 7. s.12. VI.-When foreknowledge is ascribed to God, the word imports (1) that general prescience whereby He knew from all eternity both what He Himself would do, and what His creatures, in consequence of His efficacious and permissive decree, should do likewise. The Divine foreknowledge, considered in this view, is absolutely universal; it extends to all beings that did, do or ever shall exist, and to all actions that ever have been, that are or shall be done, whether good or evil, natural, civil or moral. (2) The word often denotes that special prescience which has for its objects His own elect, and them alone, whom He is in a peculiar sense said to know and foreknow (Psa. i. 6; John x. 27; 2 Tim. ii. 19; Rom. viii. 29; 1 Peter i. 2), and this knowledge is connected with, or rather the same with love, favour and approbation. VII.-We come now to consider the meaning of the word predestination, and how it is taken in Scripture. The verb predestinate is of Latin original, and signifies, in that tongue, to deliberate beforehand with one's self how one shall act; and in consequence of such deliberation to constitute, fore-ordain and predetermine where, when, how and by whom anything shall be done, and to what end it shall be done. So the Greek verb which exactly answers to the English word predestinate, and is rendered by it, signifies to resolve beforehand within one's self what to do; and, before the thing resolved on is actually effected, to appoint it to some certain use, and direct it to some determinate end. The Hebrew verb Habhdel has likewise much the same signification. Now, none but wise men are capable (especially in matters of great importance) of rightly determining what to do, and how to accomplish a proper end by just, suitable and effectual means; and if this is, confessedly, a very material part of true wisdom, who so fit to dispose of men and assign each individual his sphere of action in this world, and his place in the world to come, as the all-wise God? And yet, alas! how many are there who cavil at those eternal decrees which, were we capable of fully and clearly understanding them, would appear to be as just as they are sovereign and as wise as they are incomprehensible! Divine preordination has for its objects all things that are created: no creature, whether rational or irrational, animate or inanimate, is exempted from its influence. All beings whatever, from the highest angel to the meanest reptile, and from the meanest reptile to the minutest atom, are the objects of God's eternal decrees and particular providence. However, the ancient fathers only make use of the word predestination as it refers to angels or men, whether good or evil, and it is used by the apostle Paul in a more limited sense still, so as, by it, to mean only that branch of it which respects God's election and designation of His people to eternal life (Rom. viii. 30; Eph. i. 11). But, that we may more justly apprehend the import of this word, and the ideas intended to be conveyed by it, it may be proper to observe that the term predestination, theologically taken, admits of a fourfold definition, and may be considered as (1) "that eternal, most wise and immutable decree of God, whereby He did from before all time determine and ordain to create, dispose of and direct to some particular end every person and thing to which He has given, or is yet to give, being, and to make the whole creation subservient to and declarative of His own glory." Of this decree actual providence is the execution. (2) Predestination may be considered as relating generally to mankind, and them only; and in this view we define it to he "the everlasting, sovereign and invariable purpose of God, whereby He did determine within Himself to create Adam in His own image and likeness and then to permit his fall; and to suffer him thereby to plunge himself and his whole posterity" (inasmuch as they all sinned in him, not only virtually, but also federally and representatively) "into the dreadful abyss of sin, misery and death." (3) Consider predestination as relating to the elect only, and it is "that eternal, unconditional, particular and irreversible act of the Divine will whereby, in matchless love and adorable sovereignty, God determined with Himself to deliver a certain number of Adam's degenerate* offspring out of that sinful and miserable estate into which, by his primitive transgression, they were to fall," and in which sad condition they were equally involved, with those who were not chosen, but, being pitched upon and singled out by God the Father to be vessels of grace and salvation (not for anything in them that could recommend them to His favour or entitle them to His notice, but merely because He would show Himself gracious to them), they were, in time, actually redeemed by Christ, are effectually called by His Spirit, justified, adopted, sanctified, and preserved safe to His heavenly kingdom. The supreme end of this decree is the manifestation of His own infinitely glorious and amiably tremendous perfections; the inferior or subordinate end is the happiness and salvation of them who are thus freely elected. (4) Predestination, as it regards the reprobate, is "that eternal, most holy, sovereign and immutable act of God's will, whereby He hath determined to leave some men to perish in their sins, and to be justly punished for them."

* When we say that the decree of predestination to life and death respects man as fallen, we do not mean that the fall was actually antecedent to that decree, for the decree is truly and properly eternal, as all God's immanent acts undoubtedly are, whereas the fall took place in time. What we intend, then, is only this, viz., that God (for reasons, without doubt, worthy of Himself, and of which we are by no means in this life competent judges), having, from everlasting, peremptorily ordained to suffer the fall of Adam, did likewise, from everlasting, consider the human race as fallen; and out of the whole mass of mankind, thus viewed and foreknown as impure and obnoxious to condemnation, vouchsafed to select some particular persons (who collectively make up a very great though precisely determinate number) in and on whom He would make known the ineffable riches of His mercy. -SNIP-

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A ABSOLUTE PREDESTINATION SATURDAY MORNING PING!

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HAVE A BLESSED WEEKEND!

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Let's see... how many 'Predestination' advocates think they're NOT one of the 'special ones'?

***crickets chirping***

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Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(KJV)

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Is that an answer to my question?

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Total Depravity or Total Inability
The doctrine of original sin that resulted from the Fall is a very humbling doctrine according to the Reformers. They believed that Adam's rebellion and corruption, imputed to and inherited by all mankind, left him in such a state that he was the enemy of God and served only his own sinful nature. "As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one.' " (Romans 3.10-12) While Arminius felt that man was only sick and weakened by sin, the Reformed faith teaches that man is dead in sin, that is has no desire to turn to God, that his master is Satan - "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." (Ephesians 2.1-3)

The natural man who is dead in sin regards the Gospel message as foolishness. How often we see the same reaction from some of our relatives and friends. God must revive the sinner spiritually and make him alive before he will turn to God. This is called Regeneration, which is the work of the Holy Spirit in a man's heart (see Ezekial 36 above). "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1.18) "But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2.10-14) "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Ephesians 2.4-5)

According to the correct doctrine of original sin, man does not have the ability to do good or the goodness in himself to choose to please God. This should be obvious to the careful scholar from the above passages, and the wise man will not deny what the Holy Spirit guided the Apostle Paul to write - "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God...there is none who does good, no, not one." There are many verses in which God exhorts the sinner to turn to Him, to follow Him, to obey Him, to trust in Him, to receive His Son, but it would be wrong to assume that this implies that man has the ability to respond to these on his own. To deny this is to deny our utter dependency on God - "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above." (James 1.17)

For example, one of the most popular verses taken to represent the Gospel is in Revelations 3.20 - "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." For many this verse implies that each man has the ability to open the door, but the verse does not support this interpretation because two verse later it says "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Why does Christ say this; are we the one who take credit for hearing and responding to the Lord? Absolutely not, look at Matthew 13.11-15 - "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; for the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them." Also look at a conversation between Peter and Christ - "He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 16.15-17) Also understand how dependent you are on the Triune God - "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."

Some in the visible church have denied the depravity of man. Others, such as Arminius, have bent this doctrine so that while all are fallen, all are given the possibilty of faith and are given enough grace to make them able to will and do good, so that after all none are left totally depraved. Again, they continue to put salvation at the disposal and glory of man, and it leads us to our next topic:


Unconditional Election
The word "elect" is in many places in the Bible, and the definition of this word is clear. It means to choose. Some have not appreciated this word in Scripture and have stripped it of its meaning. Anywhere they see this word they believe it simply means the believers or the true church. It does have this meaning, but the elect are so because God elected or chose them. Others have felt that the elect are chosen because God looked ahead with His perfect foreknowledge and saw those who would choose Him. He elected them because they elected Him first. The authority of Scripture differs - "We love Him because He first loved us." (1 John 4.19)

Now while Arminius taught that God had special favor towards those who showed favor to Him, the Reformers believed that the elect were no better or different than any other fallen human. God is not a respecter of persons, and election proves it! He looked not to the value of the redeemed, but to His own merciful and gracious counsel. The distinction between the elect and the non-elect are not in themselves, it is in God's divine will, and that is why we call election 'unconditional.' "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin." (Romans 3.9)

Scripture is clear that man must have faith and believe in Christ to be saved. Here we must ask, does God elect people because they have faith, or do they have faith because He has elected them? Look around and the careful person will easily see that not all have faith. Is the difference seen here the result of man? Is salvation from the Lord, or is it according to man and God? Here again we must go to Scripture - "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Romans 5.8-10) Here it is clear that we were not only sinners, but His enemies, and He our enemy. And that while we were His enemies He reconciled us to Him. Do we share the same definition for the word 'enemy'? Again we must show how clear the Word is on this issue - "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2.4-10) What is your part in your salvation, sinner?

Beyond the above verses God has taught us that it is He that elects according to His good pleasure:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth; in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will." (Ephesians 1.3-11)
"I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." (Romans 9.15)


"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy." (1 Peter 2.9-10)

Arminius continued to reject the Bible's position on election, supposing that God sent His Son to die for all men, and so we must go to our next topic:



Limited Atonement
Arminius believed that Jesus died and atoned for the sins of all mankind, but the Reformers did not believe that Christ atoned for the sins of those who will go to hell. The Reformers believed that Christ did not pay the price for their sins - they will. Why would we doubt this? Again, why would we doubt the fact that the reason some will go to hell is to pay for their own sins? The prudent Christian will at once understand the falsehood taught by Arminius.

But this is still a part of popular Arminianism. Some will produce what they consider to be triumphant passages, which while they hope to prove their point, goes much further than they intended if they hold to their interpretation. One such is 1 Timothy 2.1-6 - "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all" What the Arminian hopes to prove here is that God does not elect (as He wrote He did in His Word) and that Christ was a ransom for all.


We must use the Word of God here to define itself. Is God contradicting Himself? Let us first look at the desire that God has for all men to be saved (as the verse seems to imply). It is often taught that God wants to save everyone and that this is according to His heartfelt desire, but that He does not necessarily fulfill this desire. But the Bible, His revealed will, distinctly says that He fulfills all His desires. "He does whatever He pleases" (Psalm 115.3), "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure" (Isaiah 46.10), "He does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth" (Daniel 4.35), "Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1.11), and "Whatever the LORD pleases He does" (Psalm 135.6). Holding to the position that God does not elect but desires all to be saved must, and Scripturally must, mean that all mankind will be saved! Do you believe in a universal salvation, that all will be saved?


Arminian doctrine, while intending to put the choice for life or death in the hands of man, only is teaching universal salvation by producing this verse. We must also look at the second part, that Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all. First we must look at other verses which tell us something different - "and to give His life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20.28, Mark 10.45) and "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26.28, Mark 14,24). Which are we to believe? If we throw out the 'many' in favor of 'all', than again we are believing and teaching universal salvation. What does 'ransom' mean, but to pay the price to buy back or to redeem by satisfying the cost.


In this passage in 1 Timothy the Reformers saw no contradiction in Scripture. Paul the Apostle is telling Timothy to pray for all men, even the kings and rulers, though they both put Christ to death and had continued to persecute the New Testament church. Even these men God may redeem through His Son's work on the cross, and Timothy was not to disallow any class or order of men to hear the Gospel - all classes of men make up the kingdom of God.

The Reformers did not doubt the work that Christ did. They believed He fulfilled His purpose perfectly. They would never teach that the work of God was in vain, or that His Son's blood was to be taken so casually so as to not fully satisfy every sin His Father sent Him to atone for. And they appreciated His life and death too much to disregard Scripture, which tells us that Christ died for His Church. "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep." (John 10.11) "I lay down My life for the sheep." (John 10.15) "You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him." (John 17.2) "I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours." (John 17.9) "the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20.28) "And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." (Hebrews 9.15) "He said, 'It is finished!' And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit." (John 19.30)


But again, Arminius would not accept the teaching of Scripture, and why, but to give man the right to choose eternal life at his pleasure, so we must go to our next doctrine:



Irresistible Grace
If God elects some to salvation, what will happen if they do not want it? What if they do not want to be saved? Will He force it on them? The chinks in Arminian theology are now becoming gaping holes. Did Arminius refuse, like Pelagius, to admit the doctrine of original sin? But fallen man does not like the things of God, he will not serve Him, he rebels against His authority. No one wants God's grace, nor do they want to be in His presence. How will anyone be saved unless God changes that person? "As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips ; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Romans 3.10-18) Sinner, you are that person unless God changes you. Do not deny this if you desire the salvation of the Lord.


God's salvation is efficacious. That is to say, when God graciously saves a sinner, he changes him through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in such a way that the sinner loathes his sin, repents, and responds in faith to his Redeemer's voice. This regeneration process changes man's attitude towards his former enemy. Look again at the promises of God as He works to save: "But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nationswherever they went. Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD," says the Lord GOD, "when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." (Ezekial 36.21-27)


The heart of the Reformed faith is the appreciation and joy in God's sovereign predestination and election of the saints, that God is almighty, that God is perfectly just and graciously merciful, that God is God. The heart of this Arminian heresy is man's rights and free will. Because Arminians have such a shallow view of the fall, it is little wonder that they do not see what free will does for man. What did Adam and Eve do of their free will, but choose to turn from God. But Arminius, blundering ahead, must demand that God Himself put every individual back in the Garden of Eden and give them a choice for themselves, a decision that will ultimately determine their destiny - "If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword." Is fallen man's destiny in doubt if God does not act? No it is not, they are already guilty and under His wrath! They are without excuse. But Arminius, continuing further down a dark labyrinth, will question God's fairness unless He gives everybody a 'chance' again with their free-will. But the Lord has answered Arminianism - "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?" (Romans 9.20)


Now it is popular to 'accept Jesus' or to 'decide' to follow Christ or to 'get saved' and this is the modern equivalent of Arminianism. But man is not saved by his will at all, and neither were you. And what does the Bible say - "Then Jesus said to His disciples, 'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.'" (Matthew 16.24-25) What does the Lord Jesus call for, but for us to deny all of ourselves, to deny that there is glory and goodness in us, that there is any hope in ourselves, but only a perverse will, and to put our whole assurance in Him and His work. Many will say that salvation was obtained by their decision, but do they doubt what God has worked in them? "Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?" (Romans 2.4)

More exactly, Scripture quite plainly teaches that man is not saved by 'free-will' - "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1.12-13) "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." (Romans 9.16) "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11.29)


"You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior. I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, and there was no foreign god among you; therefore you are My witnesses," says the LORD, "that I am God. Indeed before the day was, I am He; and there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?" (Isaiah 43.10-13)

How much more plain can God's Word make this point, that "salvation is of the LORD" and not of man? But there is still rebellion from many concerning whose work salvation is:



Perseverance and Preservation of the Saints
"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13.48) Look at how God must work in man before he will believe. "Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen." (Hebrews 13.20-21)

The issue of this fifth and final point is that salvation is the work of God's grace in man, and those whom God has appointed to eternal life will find their salvation in Him and by Him. He will keep them to the end, and He will never leave them nor forsake them. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand." (John 10.28-29)


Arminius taught that just as man chose to be saved, he could also change his mind and choose not to be saved. Man was also likely to lose his salvation if he did not work hard to keep in God's good favor. It is now easy to see that Arminius believed that it was man who secured his own salvation, just as Pelagius did. After all, he believed that man was sovereign and the final authority in eternal life, and there was no good reason why God should save anyone who didn't live up to his end of the bargain. The Reformers had a much higher opinion of God than Arminius, and they believed that salvation was entirely the work of God and entirely to His praise. If He will not save, none will be saved. If He saves some, they will be saved.


Scripture again is clear on this matter - "Although my house is not so with God, yet He has made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things and secure. For this is all my salvation and all my desire; will He not make it increase?" (2 Samuel 23.5) "I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." (1 Corinthians 1.4-9) The message of the Gospel is that though we are unfaithful, God is faithful. It is not we who save ourselves, but He who saves us. This is His work and to His glory. "And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me." (Jeremiah 32.40) "being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1.6)

Now there are some who exclude the possibility of losing your salvation from their Arminian theology. These people agree with the above verses in part, for they believe that once you make the decision to accept Jesus into your heart, nothing you can do or choose to do can cost you your reward of eternal life. This is often called "Eternal Security." They teach that salvation is still a cooperative effort between God and man, and that eternal life is granted as a reward for faith as chosen by your own free will, but that there are no other requirements for the Christian, nor will he necessarily exhibit characteristics of a Christian.

But this is the cheapest definition of grace. It believes that grace is for the asking in words alone, and does not revere the work of God's Holy Spirit in the believer or the work of the Lamb of God. They say "it is not necessary that I obey, for I am willing to ask to be saved, and I have fulfilled my end of the bargain between myself and God, and now He must fulfill His." They say "ask Him into your heart, and it matters not whether He comes in, for you now have eternal life."


Though many Arminians who hold to Eternal Security go on to encourage the believer to become more Christlike, they miss the point that it is God who saves and not their decision (as we have covered), and that God does not save apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - "God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2.13) "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5.22-24)

Those who have considered themselves to be saved by their own decision will be cut down if God does not save them and produce His fruit in them - "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." (John 15.1-5) Likewise, those He does save according to His will spend eternity with Him - "the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful." (Revelations 17.14)

THERE IS NO GOOD IN ANY OF US.

ONLY GOD'S GRACE.

JUSTIFICATION BY CHRIST ALONE!

[AmericaUnited]

That's a lot of words. Can we make this very simple?

Do you believe in predestination? If so, do you believe that you are one of 'the elect'?

As originally posted, I'm interesting in finding someone who believes in predestination AND also believes they ARE NOT one of the 'elect'.

[Sans-Culotte]

As originally posted, I'm interesting in finding someone who believes in predestination AND also believes they ARE NOT one of the 'elect'.

Why would someone who believes in predestination not believe they are among the elect? Such a person certainly believes in God, believes they are saved (by grace thru faith not of themselves), and if they believe in predestination, they believe they are among the elect. As they believe they did nothing to warrant salvation, they would have to believe they were predestined for salvation through grace.

You will certainly find many who believe they are saved, but do not accept predestination. I do not think you will find any who believe the opposite.

[AmericaUnited]

As they believe they did nothing to warrant salvation, they would have to believe they were predestined for salvation through grace.

Whether they did 'something' to warrant salvation or were 'predestined' to be one of the ones to be saved are two different subjects.

An example. I decide children in a room will get presents. If I decide that only certain ones will get presents, by knowing what my criteria is, and also knowing which ones in advance meet that crtieria, is different than deciding that all those who want a present and choose to meet my criteria will get one. The debate over what the 'criteria' is or should be is related but a different topic.

I do not think you will find any who believe the opposite.

Exactly!

[Kitty Mittens]

There are Some, Like myself, who Believe the Scriptural Truth of Predestination, but don't Know for Sure if we are Among the Elect, because of Scriptures Such as Matt. 21-23. Many People Think they are Saved, but on Judgement Day will Find Out Differently. I'm one who, if Truly Saved, will have Been Saved Totally, 100% by Grace Alone.

[AmericaUnited]

Do you believe salvation is a gift?

[Kitty Mittens]

Yes; an Absolutely Unmerited and Un-Earned Gift of Sovereign Grace. (Thanks be to our Merciful Lord!)

[AmericaUnited]

Do you understand that a gift must be 'accepted' by it's intended recipient? If the recipient MUST accept it, it IS NOT a gift at all, but is the same as being given a rifle after enlisting in the army.

And that's the very simple reason why each of us must be free to 'accept' the Gift of Salvation. If each of us were not given a free will in choosing to accept God's gift, we would be nothing more than dumb animals or robots. You don't need a 9000 page theological writeup for this simple concept.

[Kitty Mittens]

We Know we're not Robots; we can Think, Reason, and Feel, and No One is Ever Forced to Accept the Gift of Salvation. Actually, No One is Able to Accept the Free Gift; "No man Can Come to Me, Except the Father which hath Sent Me Draw him." (Jn.6:44) No man Can Come unto Me, Except it were Given unto him of My Father. (Jn.6:65)

If we Think of the Fallen Angels, they are All Justly Condemned Forever for their Sin, and there is No Redemption for Any of them. When Man Fell, we Also Deserved to be Condemned, and Indeed Most of Mankind, According to the Scriptures, will Go On to their Eternal, Just Punishment. But our Gracious One has "Plucked Some of the Brands from the Burning," and has Paid their Penalty Himself, so it is No Longer Due, and they are Set Free. (Glory to His Name!) At Least for me, these Mysteries are Difficult to Understand; we don't Know why our Lord Chose to Save Any of us from our Just Condemnation, or why He didn't Save Some of the Fallen Angels, etc; there are So Many Unanswered Questions in Each of our Minds, No Doubt. But we can Be Sure of these Things: (that are a Comfort to my Own Heart) Our Savior Loves us, " Unto Him that Loves us, and Washed us from our Sins in His Own Blood. (Rev.1:5), and that He is Glorious, and All Things were Created for His Glory and for His Pleasure and Will. "Thou art Worthy, O Lord, to Receive Glory and Honour and Power: for Thou hast Created All Things, and for Thy Pleasure they are and were Created." (Rev.4:11)

It is Amazing to me that Every Man Does Not Flee to Christ for Salvation, but Mankind is Exceedingly Wicked in his Fallen State, and Does Not Want Christ, and Will Not and Can Not Come to Him, because Man is Attached to Sin and Self.

[AmericaUnited]

No man Can Come to Me, Except the Father which hath Sent Me Draw him." (Jn.6:44)

Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself." (John 12:32) Note: All men, not some men. He was lifted up i.e. on the cross. He IS now trying to draw all men to himself. Your Jn 6:44 above is taken out of context to fit here.

Actually, No One is Able to Accept the Free Gift;

No actually, that doesn't make sense. Either the gift is given, and you can then choose to accept it or not, or no gift was given to you and you do have any choice to make.

Did Jesus understand the concept of predestination? If so, why would he make statements to the contrary? Was he confused?

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray. 12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold. 13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

It is very clear what Jesus was saying here. False prophets would deceive some, they would turn away but those who choose not to would keep their salvation.

How about this:

1 Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, [himself] man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony [to be borne] in its own times;

Romans 10 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: 13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

These verses DO NOT say "just those elect who have been selected...". It says ALL.

The notion that God/Jesus wanted or preselected only some to be saved is an outright abomination, taught by those who twist certain select scriptures ("Well, it depends what the meaning of "is" is"), IGNORING the heart of God and the plain spoken declarations above. Their arguments remind me of those same tortured ones given by the "the income tax is illegal" kooks.

[Kitty Mittens]

...if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself." (John 12:32)

Yes, All Races of Men, All Sorts of Men, not just the Jewish People He was Speaking to at that Moment. All Men, Both Jew and Gentile, etc. I Know we Differ in our Understanding of Scripture, and this Discussion we are having is the Same Discussion that has been Taking Place in the Church for 2000 Years. I Started to Gather Many Scriptures that Support the Position I Take, but then we would just sort of Go Round and Round in Circles. (If you have Ever Read or Engaged in this Discussion Before, you Know All the Scriptures I would Use Anyway!) : ) What is Foremost in Both our Minds as Believers is the Preservation of our Lord's Integrity, and that's why we Believe the Things we Believe.

Two Things I'd Like to Touch Upon; you Said, "The notion that God/Jesus wanted or preselected only some to be saved is an outright abomination..." To me, it is a Mercy, because Mankind was All Doomed, but our Master Intervened and Scooped Some of us Up as we were in the Very Process of Cascading into Hell. In Place of Just Judgement, Came Undeserved Grace and Mercy.

"False prophets would deceive some, they would turn away but those who choose not to would keep their salvation." I Admit I cannot Possibly Keep it; I Feel my Inadequacy Constantly, and I would Lose it Everyday, All Day Long, in Thought, Word, and Deed. All I can Do is Pray to be Kept by the Power of God, as Peter Said, in 1Pet.1:5, and be Found in Christ, Covered in His Righteousness, as Paul Said in Phil.3.

Thank you for your Well-Thought-Out-Post, AmericaUnited, and I Pray I don't Sound Harsh in Anything I Said, Especially with a Brother or Sister in Christ.

[uptoolate]

but our Master Intervened and Scooped Some of us Up

Why?

[AmericaUnited]

Two Things I'd Like to Touch Upon; you Said, "The notion that God/Jesus wanted or preselected only some to be saved is an outright abomination..." To me, it is a Mercy, because Mankind was All Doomed, but our Master Intervened and Scooped Some of us Up as we were in the Very Process of Cascading into Hell. In Place of Just Judgement, Came Undeserved Grace and Mercy.

I assume you believe our Heavenly Father is a better one than most earthly fathers (and mothers). So... how many good and loving parents do you know that ONLY WANT SOME of their children to prosper, get healed from a terrible sickness, get released from prison, and/or come back from being prodigals?

I know of absolutely NONE! Jesus said it best in Luke 11:11 when he said ("My Paraphrase :) )"If you being inherently sinful and evil, try to be good parents, how much more so will your Heaven Father be a good and perfect parent."

[onedoug]

Deuteronomy 4:19 and Malachi 1:11.

[AnalogReigns]

And I wonder how many of those who loudly beat the drum for predestination are baptistic...and not accepting of covenant theology....