Posted on 11/09/2006 8:44:45 AM PST by policyforever867
The Holy Trinity
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
No entity called "the holy spirit" is there with them. Also, every vision of heaven never includes a myserious 3rd person called the holy spirit. For example:
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God forever and ever. Amen.
Notice that they are not worshipping anyone called "the holy spirit" in heaven, but they are worshipping the father and son. The holy spirit is the presence and power of God on earth. It is not a separate person in the Godhead.
These are all terms than man ascribes and are limited by our perspective. Imagine a two year old describing the workings of Quantum Physics. Anytime a human must describe the supernatural, we have already created a problem in that our perspective is so limited. IMHO, God transcends all of these descriptions and they are simply attempts by man to describe aspects of God's nature/being that he cannot find a better description for.
Note: What I say could apply to all dogma, not simply the 'Trinity'..
The usual "explanation" is
horate hoti ex ergon dikaioutai anthropos kai ouk ek pisteos monon.
-- James 2:24
Just saying ...
This position is not orthodox Trinitarianism. This is known variously as "Monarchianism," "Modalism," "Sabellianism," or "Patripassianism" when it first arose in the second or third century. This belief is common today among the "oneness" Pentecostals but it is simply a resurrection of an old heresy.
Check out the article on "Monarchiamism" at the Catholic Encyclopedia for more information.
These two articles are also relevant:
- An overview of modern Anti-Trinitarian heresies.
- A brief survey of anti-Trinitarianism.
-Theo
Good post, well stated.
Just as a check on our thinking, whenever one thinks any person of the Trinity is not God, then that thinking is following a wrong premise or past thought. God reveals Himself though simple faith in Him.
John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
I also liked what you said. It seems to me that the classic doctrinal formulations are, in a way, cautionary. That is, if I find myself in a line of thought that divides the substance or confuses the persons -- or in Christ confuses the natures or divides the person, I'm probably messing up.
One of my favorite moments in my education happened when i was tangling with one of my best-loved professors and I said, "You're dividing the person!" and he laughed and replied, "I am NOT -- YOU'RE confusing the natures!" And we both laughed.
Mind you, we both used to go around muttering at each other, "None is orthodox but me and thee, and sometimes I have my doubts about thee ..."
If you look to the Older Testament for understanding,b'shem Y'shua
it becomes crystal clear.It is the Father who forgives us;
it is the Son, who is our Salvation as it is His Name
His real Name is not Jesus that is an English version
of Greek which is a version of the
Hebrew Name He was given: Yah'shua
Which means "YHvH is become our Salvation".and the Ru'ach HaKodesh (Eliezer or Comforter )
who provides us with living pools of water.Isaiah 12:1 In that day you will say: “I will praise you, O LORD.
Although you were angry with me, your anger has turned
away and you have comforted me.
Isaiah 12:2 Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The
LORD, the LORD, is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation.”
Isaiah 12:3 With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation.
Isaiah 12:4 In that day you will say: “Give thanks to the LORD, call on
his name; make known among the nations what he has done,
and proclaim that his name is exalted.
Isaiah 12:5 Sing to the LORD, for he has done glorious things;
let this be known to all the world.
Isaiah 12:6 Shout aloud and sing for joy, people of Zion,
for great is the Holy One of Israel among you.”
Sounds pretty self explanitory to me
It sounds to me like you don't really believe, you're just being obedient.
They are one God. He is revealed to us in three persons.
It is a fabulous study for each and every believer to follow through first making sure we are in fellowship with Him by turning our thinking to Him and confessing our sins, known and unknown to Him and He is sure and just to forgive us those sins. By remaining in faith through Him, He conitinues to guide us appropriately.
Here is another interesting aspect of the Trinity.
In the Old Testament, believers were endued with the Holy Spirit, but today, in the Church Age believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Indwelling is not experiential, ut the filling of the spirit may be experiential. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit provides a temple in us for the indwelling of the Son and in dwelling of the Father.
Some fascinating studies are paying close attention of the relationships between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost; their ministries, their role in salvation, and role in prayer.
It is interesting to note that the Holy Spirit makes our prayers known to the Father in fashions where we are incapable. Also, there is a vast distinction between OT theology and names of different persons of the Godhead and the NT language. They are still the same Word of God and revealed by an immutable God.
They have trouble explaining this doctrine. In the end it has to be accepted it by faith. Even Catholics will tell you its a paradox.
You must be God too then since Jesus prayed that all beleivers would become one with him and the father.
So, let me ask first: Do you accept what the Bible says about the Church being "the pillar and foundation of the Truth"? (If you do not, then I have another question: "Do you believe the Bible?")
If you do believe the Bible, then your frame of reference should be the "pillar and foundation of the Truth." the Church; not your own inclinations and not your fellow FReepers. For guidance on difficult matters having to do with Divine Revelation, read what the Ecumenical Councils taught (starting with Nicaea in 325 AD.)
It's very beautiful and very meaningful, but not something you can arrive at without the God-authorized teaching authority of the Church.
I've never understood why some paradoxs are OK, and others are not.
[Origin: 1530–40; < L paradoxum < Gk parádoxon, n. use of neut. of parádoxos unbelievable, lit., beyond belief. See para-1, orthodox]
Sorry, but I'm a Catholic, and I'm here to tell you that the Trinity is no paradox. It is, however, a mystery, the technical definition of which is a "revealed truth of the faith which cannot be fully grasped by created human intellect".
Frank Sheed (the late Catholic apologist, not the FReeper) very clearly explains the Trinity in Theology and Sanity.
The church is to be the defender of Truth, not the originator of Truth.
Ok I stand corrected. "Mystery" instead of "paradox". (although it is true I've been told by certain Catholics its a paradox) Since it can't be explained to be understood by the human intellect my point remains ya gotta take it by faith.
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