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The Real Trinity
November 9, 2006 | Brion James

Posted on 11/09/2006 8:44:45 AM PST by policyforever867

The Holy Trinity


TOPICS: Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic; trinity
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Ok, I believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as I am commanded to. I have grown up believing that the Son is the Father, the Spirit is the Son, and the Father is the Spirit, otherwise known as the Holy Trinity. But I have started to wonder if that was actually what i should believe. If we look in the Old Testment, countless number of times we here that God will send his Son. Even in the New Testament, Jesus himself says that the Father sent Him, he never says that I am the Father and the Father is Me, but He is referring to them working together or with each other. Is it wrong to believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and them working together as one, or do I have to believe they are all the same?
1 posted on 11/09/2006 8:44:48 AM PST by policyforever867
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To: policyforever867
The current trinity doctrine is a traditional, theological explanation of the Godhead. Like you, I have been unable to reconcile it to scripture. The definitive statement of the Godhead is found in John 1:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

No entity called "the holy spirit" is there with them. Also, every vision of heaven never includes a myserious 3rd person called the holy spirit. For example:

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God forever and ever. Amen.

Notice that they are not worshipping anyone called "the holy spirit" in heaven, but they are worshipping the father and son. The holy spirit is the presence and power of God on earth. It is not a separate person in the Godhead.

2 posted on 11/09/2006 8:52:24 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: policyforever867

These are all terms than man ascribes and are limited by our perspective. Imagine a two year old describing the workings of Quantum Physics. Anytime a human must describe the supernatural, we have already created a problem in that our perspective is so limited. IMHO, God transcends all of these descriptions and they are simply attempts by man to describe aspects of God's nature/being that he cannot find a better description for.

Note: What I say could apply to all dogma, not simply the 'Trinity'..


3 posted on 11/09/2006 8:53:15 AM PST by mnehring (Did 'True Conservatives' stab our troops in the back by not voting?)
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To: policyforever867
Oh Boy! Free Republic -- JUST the place for a calm dispassionate examination of Trinitarian Theology.

The usual "explanation" is

The fun greek words to think about in this connection are hentos (?), ousia, hypostasis, and prosopon. Just to clarify: I believe in the Holy Trinity as it is set forth in the creed (or "symbol") commonly called "The Nicene Creed" and would just as soon not discuss the "filioque" this morning.

horate hoti ex ergon dikaioutai anthropos kai ouk ek pisteos monon.
-- James 2:24
Just saying ...

4 posted on 11/09/2006 9:03:42 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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To: policyforever867
I have grown up believing that the Son is the Father, the Spirit is the Son, and the Father is the Spirit, otherwise known as the Holy Trinity. But I have started to wonder if that was actually what i should believe.

This position is not orthodox Trinitarianism. This is known variously as "Monarchianism," "Modalism," "Sabellianism," or "Patripassianism" when it first arose in the second or third century. This belief is common today among the "oneness" Pentecostals but it is simply a resurrection of an old heresy.

Check out the article on "Monarchiamism" at the Catholic Encyclopedia for more information.

These two articles are also relevant:

- An overview of modern Anti-Trinitarian heresies.

- A brief survey of anti-Trinitarianism.

-Theo

5 posted on 11/09/2006 9:04:28 AM PST by Teófilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Mad Dawg

Good post, well stated.


6 posted on 11/09/2006 9:07:16 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: policyforever867

Just as a check on our thinking, whenever one thinks any person of the Trinity is not God, then that thinking is following a wrong premise or past thought. God reveals Himself though simple faith in Him.


7 posted on 11/09/2006 9:09:35 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: DouglasKC

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.


8 posted on 11/09/2006 9:14:22 AM PST by Augustinian monk
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To: Cvengr
Thanks. Is "hentos" correct? (I could look it up, but sheesh. Increasing brain failure here.)

I also liked what you said. It seems to me that the classic doctrinal formulations are, in a way, cautionary. That is, if I find myself in a line of thought that divides the substance or confuses the persons -- or in Christ confuses the natures or divides the person, I'm probably messing up.

One of my favorite moments in my education happened when i was tangling with one of my best-loved professors and I said, "You're dividing the person!" and he laughed and replied, "I am NOT -- YOU'RE confusing the natures!" And we both laughed.

Mind you, we both used to go around muttering at each other, "None is orthodox but me and thee, and sometimes I have my doubts about thee ..."

9 posted on 11/09/2006 9:18:14 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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To: policyforever867
If you look to the Older Testament for understanding,
it becomes crystal clear.

It is the Father who forgives us;

it is the Son, who is our Salvation as it is His Name
His real Name is not Jesus that is an English version
of Greek which is a version of the
Hebrew Name He was given: Yah'shua
Which means "YHvH is become our Salvation".

and the Ru'ach HaKodesh (Eliezer or Comforter )
who provides us with living pools of water.

Isaiah 12:1 In that day you will say: “I will praise you, O LORD.
Although you were angry with me, your anger has turned
away and you have comforted me.

Isaiah 12:2 Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The
LORD, the LORD, is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation.”
Isaiah 12:3 With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation.

Isaiah 12:4 In that day you will say: “Give thanks to the LORD, call on
his name; make known among the nations what he has done,
and proclaim that his name is exalted.

Isaiah 12:5 Sing to the LORD, for he has done glorious things;
let this be known to all the world.

Isaiah 12:6 Shout aloud and sing for joy, people of Zion,
for great is the Holy One of Israel among you.”

b'shem Y'shua

10 posted on 11/09/2006 9:20:41 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 144:1 Praise be to YHvH, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.)
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To: policyforever867
I and [my] Father are one.
John 10:30 (KJV)

Sounds pretty self explanitory to me

11 posted on 11/09/2006 9:23:26 AM PST by The Bard (http://www.reflectupon.com/)
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To: policyforever867

It sounds to me like you don't really believe, you're just being obedient.


12 posted on 11/09/2006 9:44:58 AM PST by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: policyforever867

They are one God. He is revealed to us in three persons.

It is a fabulous study for each and every believer to follow through first making sure we are in fellowship with Him by turning our thinking to Him and confessing our sins, known and unknown to Him and He is sure and just to forgive us those sins. By remaining in faith through Him, He conitinues to guide us appropriately.

Here is another interesting aspect of the Trinity.

In the Old Testament, believers were endued with the Holy Spirit, but today, in the Church Age believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Indwelling is not experiential, ut the filling of the spirit may be experiential. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit provides a temple in us for the indwelling of the Son and in dwelling of the Father.

Some fascinating studies are paying close attention of the relationships between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost; their ministries, their role in salvation, and role in prayer.

It is interesting to note that the Holy Spirit makes our prayers known to the Father in fashions where we are incapable. Also, there is a vast distinction between OT theology and names of different persons of the Godhead and the NT language. They are still the same Word of God and revealed by an immutable God.


13 posted on 11/09/2006 10:58:33 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: stuartcr
It sounds to me like you don't really believe, you're just being obedient.

They have trouble explaining this doctrine. In the end it has to be accepted it by faith. Even Catholics will tell you its a paradox.

14 posted on 11/09/2006 11:38:55 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: The Bard
Sounds pretty self explanitory to me

You must be God too then since Jesus prayed that all beleivers would become one with him and the father.

15 posted on 11/09/2006 11:41:15 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: policyforever867
If you ignore or bypass what the Bible teaches about the authority of the Church, and especially if you don't even read Hebrew and Greek --- it's hopeless. There's nothing more I can say.

So, let me ask first: Do you accept what the Bible says about the Church being "the pillar and foundation of the Truth"? (If you do not, then I have another question: "Do you believe the Bible?")

If you do believe the Bible, then your frame of reference should be the "pillar and foundation of the Truth." the Church; not your own inclinations and not your fellow FReepers. For guidance on difficult matters having to do with Divine Revelation, read what the Ecumenical Councils taught (starting with Nicaea in 325 AD.)

It's very beautiful and very meaningful, but not something you can arrive at without the God-authorized teaching authority of the Church.

16 posted on 11/09/2006 11:58:36 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (God bless you.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

I've never understood why some paradoxs are OK, and others are not.


17 posted on 11/09/2006 12:08:56 PM PST by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
par-a-dox
–noun 1. a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.
2. a self-contradictory and false proposition.
3. any person, thing, or situation exhibiting an apparently contradictory nature.
4. an opinion or statement contrary to commonly accepted opinion.

[Origin: 1530–40; < L paradoxum < Gk parádoxon, n. use of neut. of parádoxos unbelievable, lit., beyond belief. See para-1, orthodox]

Sorry, but I'm a Catholic, and I'm here to tell you that the Trinity is no paradox. It is, however, a mystery, the technical definition of which is a "revealed truth of the faith which cannot be fully grasped by created human intellect".

Frank Sheed (the late Catholic apologist, not the FReeper) very clearly explains the Trinity in Theology and Sanity.

18 posted on 11/09/2006 12:10:53 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

The church is to be the defender of Truth, not the originator of Truth.


19 posted on 11/09/2006 12:24:11 PM PST by jkl1122
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To: Campion
Sorry, but I'm a Catholic, and I'm here to tell you that the Trinity is no paradox. It is, however, a mystery, the technical definition of which is a "revealed truth of the faith which cannot be fully grasped by created human intellect".

Ok I stand corrected. "Mystery" instead of "paradox". (although it is true I've been told by certain Catholics its a paradox) Since it can't be explained to be understood by the human intellect my point remains ya gotta take it by faith.

20 posted on 11/09/2006 12:31:59 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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