Pope Retreats (NOT Pope Benedict!), or: Roman Catholics Await Ecumenical Support

September 16, 2006 | Vanity

[TaxachusettsMan]

The FOXNews website reports:

A Christian leader — the head of Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Church — said the pope's comments went "against the teachings of Christ." Coptic Pope Shenouda III told Egypt's pro-government Al-Ahram newspaper that "any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ."

[TaxachusettsMan]

How unhelpful are these remarks, attributed to Pope Shenouda III?

Did he even read Pope Benedict's address?

Talk about moral equivalence and ecumenical-doublespeak at its best/worst!

ANY remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ?

Oh really, Pope Shenouda? Even remarks that are TRUE?

As in Pope Benedict's assertion that any violence in the name of religion is unjustified and unjustifiable?

THAT may INDEED be offense to Islam and Muslims IF THEY ARE GUILTY OF THAT!

I understand that Pope Shenouda has to bow and bend to his Egyptian Muslim hosts and supervisors, but REALLY!

How embarrassing it must be for Coptic Christians to see such . . . well, cowardly remarks attributed to their Pope.

And have ANY OTHER Christian "leaders" - you know, the ones we've signed all those interfaith agreement documents with over the last forty years? - had the courage and integrity to come to Pope Benedict's defense?

So far, the only defender I've seen is a secular one, German Chancellor Angela Merkel:

``What Benedict XVI emphasized was a decisive and uncompromising renunciation of all forms of violence in the name of religion."

Thank you, Ms. Merkel!

Any Christian "leaders" want to join in the Pope's defense?

[jdm]

Isn't that the "Saturday Night Live" pope?

[Constitutions Grandchild]

It's the best he could come up with in order to keep his 3 hots and a cot and the swell hat in the land of Egypt. Let it be. He's between a rock and a hard place and his absence (which would occur in all likelihood) would leave a void quickly filled by many conversions at the point of a sword.

[AFPhys]

Actually, Merkel was wrong in her remarks about the Pope's address. “It is an invitation to dialogue between religions and the pope has explicitly urged this dialogue, which I also endorse and see as urgently necessary,” Merkel said.

It had NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT!!!

I WISH PEOPLE WOULD READ WHAT THE POPE ACTUALLY SAID AND MAKE SOME ATTEMPT TO UNDERSTAND IT!!!

http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=94748

He was not discussing Islam at all!!! He was discussing: "FAITH, REASON AND THE UNIVERSITY" ... and stated as part of his conclusion that "...theology rightly belongs in the university and within the wide-ranging dialogue of sciences..." and that "... the world's profoundly religious cultures see this exclusion of the divine from the universality of reason as an attack on their most profound convictions."

His final statement was, "It is to this great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures. To rediscover it constantly is the great task of the university." The "cultures" he was referring to had little or nothing to do with Islam - he was talking about the clash of "empirically verifiable" vs. "theology" cultures, as he earlier had said, "A reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering into the dialogue of cultures."

He is being excoriated for using a quote from over 600 years ago "-- by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.": "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." The Pope made clear he was quoting an ancient conversation. He made clear that this is NOT HIS words, but that of the Byzantine emperor, and that emperor then went on to make a "... decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: Not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature."

The last sentence was the whole point that the Pope was making during his whole presentation: Not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. It was one of his many starting points for his theological discussion of "Faith, Reason and the University", part of his conclusion being, "...We will succeed in [broadening our concept of reason and its application] only if reason and faith come together in a new way, if we overcome the self-imposed limitation of reason to the empirically verifiable, and if we once more disclose its vast horizons. In this sense theology rightly belongs in the university and within the wide-ranging dialogue of sciences, not merely as a historical discipline and one of the human sciences, but precisely as theology, as inquiry into the rationality of faith. Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today..."

The reaction to the very profound things the Pope said illustrates several things. One of them is that the people are completely incapable of understanding the profound, and that Western universities have fallen short in their education responsibilities, including in their education of the NYSlimes' reporters and their readers who can't bring themselves to acknowledge that they don't know everything. Another is this illustration that people should not be given access to specialized knowledge and discussion, whether that be theological, political, or scientific, without thorough and accurate filtering. Yet another, but by no means the final, is that biased people always misunderstand what even the finest communications expert says.

The Pope's major point is that ALL of the profoundly religious cultures whether they be Christianity, Islam, Jewish, Hindu, etc., should not be marginalized by being snootily looked at as a "subculture" not worthy of inclusion in the university environment, and that the university "culture" must engage in reason with the religious "culture".

PLEASE, If you agree with this analysis of what the Pope said, or any part of it, FEEL FREE TO USE IT any way you desire!

Especially, if you go to the "Catholic Message Boards" which I don't frequent, and which reportly have been replete with people angry about what the Pope said.

[dangus]

dhimmitude sucks

[livius]

Thanks a heap, Copts! I would seriously doubt that the good cleric read the address anyway, but he really should remember that his loyalties are supposed to lie with the Church and not with Islam. But, as another ConstitutionsGrandchild said more eloquently, he wants to keep his 3 hots and a cot. And his head, I imagine.

Still, he could have found a way to be a little less gushy when talking about Islam, since he is obviously a prime example of conversion or at any rate bare survival under duress.

[Campion]

The Copts who live in Egypt are a persecuted minority amidst a large number of Muslims. For their spiritual leader to endorse Pope Benedict's words would be a death sentence for some of them.

[rogator]

" I understand that Pope Shenouda has to bow and bend to his Egyptian Muslim hosts and supervisors, but REALLY!"

This is a perfectly reasonable course of action after centuries of dhimitude.

[AliVeritas]

Correct.

I guess being a shepherd has it's limitations...

I think back on all the Copts that shed blood there for the faith through history, the monastics and the great fathers of the church that started and came out of the school of Alexandria. What amazing faith then... like fire and blazing light.

Does he think this will save him? I guess he forgot how Egypt, once a Christian nation... became Muslim.

God's will be done... I continue to pray.

[WriteOn]

He was quoted as not knowing the text of Pope Benedict's speech...

[TaxachusettsMan]

Then he should have been quoted as having kept his big, cowardly mouth SHUT.

He's now being HEADLINED - even on FOX - as the "Christian Leader [who] Joins Muslims in Condemning Pope's Remarks."

Like I said, so much for forty years and God only knows how many forests' worth of paper in signing meaningless documents of ecumenical cooperation.

If as Scripture says, "A faithful friend is a sturdy shelter," then Shenouda III has just shown himself to be a useless pup-tent in the middle of the Egyptian desert.

Truly pathetic.

[ladyinred]

A Protestant for the Pope BTTT!

[xxyyxx]

If he supports the Roman pope many of his churches would be burnt to the ground, Coptic women would be raped and the men would be slaughtered. That's happen many times before by these muslim animals and they are always looking for an excuse to do it again. I have been over there and I can tell you the Coptics live in fear all the time. The Coptic pope was just trying to keep his people from being hurt by giving the reply he gave.