[Alex Murphy]

If you haven't been to the blog GetReligion.org, I highly recommend checking it out. It's purpose is not to debate religion per se, but to debate how the press covers (or bungles) religious issues.

[BipolarBob]

ping for later ref.

[paudio]

GetReligion.org ping

[trisham]

Ask traditional and progressive Muslims if the Christian God is their God. Now ask conservative and liberal Christians the same question, then listen to the debates and the logic. You know, that issue would make a great Times piece.

***********

No.

[murphE]

Catholic ping-out

[starfish923]

Benedict also seems to be more open to stating claims of Catholic authority in ecumenical talks with other Christians, a fact that may soon make a major impact on life in the Church of England.

I wonder if and how a "major impact" could occur in the Church of England. It denied papal authority WAY back. I doubt too many are ready to overturn his "holiness's" King Henry VIII's words. That is, they went their own way so long ago that the issue is moot -- my own opinion, of course.
The Episcopalian Church here in America seems to be having enough problems stemming from within.

[oyez]

I'm beginning to hear how the Pope is offending the Islamics. That is just too bad. The Pope's main job is to carry the Gospel. If the Muslims arer offended it is not the pontiff's fault. The fault lies in the flawed 9th Century teachings that that has been spoon fed to this captive audience. The Muslims need to get if fast and hard. The Christians and the rest of the world are offended at being the direct subject of apocalyptic fundamentalism.

[dangus]

They mean "bury the LEDE." "Lead," in journalism, means the lead story. "LEDE," means the introduction to a story which encapsulates the news. To "bury the LEDE" means to fail to tell the important news first.

Of course, so few non-journalists know that, and the blogosphere has brought in so many untrained would-be journalists, that the internet most commonly uses the word "lead" for "LEDE."

[dangus]

This story completely bungles the quote about "the truth of both." It doesn't mean the "truth" contained within Islam, but rather the truth about Islam, which is that it is an evil religion, whose only apparent good are the elements of Christianity which it borrows from and makes a mockery of.

[Salvation]

**In this case, the Times even got both angles into the headline: "Pope Assails Secularism, Adding Note on Jihad." Here is the rather tortured lead, which must have been a bear to write. **

This sounds anti-Catholic.

[Salvation]

Catholic Discussion Ping!

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[trisham]

I wonder if the author of this piece has read the full text of Pope Benedict's speech:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html

[livius]

this pope is asking if Christians have the right to raise questions about Islam and then, if need be, demand the right to debate them candidly with Muslims.

He does mention the dread word "dialogue" in his address, because he is obviously setting the stage for serious debate on the matter. I say "dread" because "dialogue" has now come to mean feel-good moments where Christians go out and listen to other people tell us how horrible we are and then congratulate ourselves for having stood there and taken it and maybe even having done a little breast-beating as a special extra. I don't think the former is this pope's idea of "dialogue," and the Muslims have been advised of it.

[annalex]

Three pertinent quotes:

The Catechism on Islam (look primarily at 841, but a larger context is necessary):

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."³²⁵

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,³²⁶ "the first to hear the Word of God."³²⁷ The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",³²⁸ "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."³²⁹

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."³³⁰

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .³³¹

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."³³²

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.³³³

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.³³⁴

(Source)

Father Fessio reporting on his private conversation with the Holy Father about Islam:

[...] if [Islam] radically reinterprets the Koran [...] it will be able to enter into real dialogue and live together with other religions and other kinds of cultures.

And immediately the holy father, in his beautiful calm but clear way, said, well, there's a fundamental problem with that because, he said, in the Islamic tradition, God has given His word to Mohammed, but it's an eternal word. It's not Mohammed's word. It's there for eternity the way it is. There's no possibility of adapting it or interpreting it, whereas in Christianity, and Judaism, the dynamism's completely different, that God has worked through his creatures. And so it is not just the word of God, it's the word of Isaiah, not just the word of God, but the word of Mark. He's used his human creatures, and inspired them to speak his word to the world, and therefore by establishing a church in which he gives authority to his followers to carry on the tradition and interpret it, there's an inner logic to the Christian Bible, which permits it and requires it to be adapted and applied to new situations.

The interviewer then asked Fessio, "And so the pope is a pessimist about that changing, because it would require a radical reinterpretation of what the Koran is?" Fessio replied, "Yeah, which is it's impossible, because it's against the very nature of the Koran, as it's understood by Muslims."

(Source)

Father Fessio dotting the i's:

The most important clarification is that the Holy Father did not say, nor did I, that "Islam is incapable of reform" ... I made a serious error in precision when I said that the Koran "cannot be adapted or applied" and that there is "no possibility of adapting or interpreting it". This is certainly not what the Holy Father said. Of course the Koran can be and has been interpreted and applied ... The presentation and the discussion were in German, and the Holy Father was not speaking from a prepared text. My German is passable, but not entirely reliable. My later remarks in a live radio interview were extemporaneous. I think that I paraphrased the Holy Father with general accuracy, but my mentioning what he said at all was an indiscretion, and my impromptu paraphrase in another language should not be used for a careful exegesis of the mind of the Holy Father.

I would like to set the record straight and avoid unnecessary embarrassment to the Holy Father. The truth is always crucial, but especially so here where the stakes are so high. I am disconsolate that I have obscured the truth by my ambiguous remarks.

(Source)

As Spengler remarks in the same article regarding Fr. Fessio's backpedaling, "Of course Father Fessio paraphrased the pope correctly. The overwhelming majority of Muslim theologians agree with the pope that Koranic revelation is fundamentally different from Christian or Jewish revelation, such that Islam cannot be reformed in the same way that Christianity or Judaism can be reformed. "

Let us not neglect to note the moore's head on Pope Benedict's coat of arms:

[Dajjal]

I have three problems with Pope Benedict's statement about jihad last Tuesday.

1) The pope's words are not criticizing jihad specifically, but are a blanket pacifistic statement opposing all use of force. "Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul." This applies as much to Bush and Blair and Olmert as it does to Bin Laden.

2) The pope's defining jihad as "spreading the faith through violence" indicates that he seems to think that their goal in the current jihad is forcible conversion of non-Muslims to Islam. I would disagree strongly. Their goal in the current jihad is the death of every infidel.

3) The Vatican spokesmen Fr. Federico Lombardi, SJ was very quick to reassure Muslim leaders that the Pope meant no offense by his statement, even emphasizing that the key words were not his own, but those of Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus. Actually, I think Fr. Lombardi is correct -- which is why I class this as a problem.

It seems to me that in his statement last Tuesday, Pope Benedict was being consistent with his opposition to the War in Iraq and Israel's battle with Hizb'ullah. On July 16th Pope Benedict said, "But neither terrorist acts nor retaliation, above all when there are tragic consequences for the civilian population, can be justified, going down such roads -- bitter experience has shown -- does not bring positive results." Likewise, on July 30th he said, "These facts demonstrate clearly that you cannot re-establish justice, create a new order and build authentic peace when you resort to instruments of violence."

Pope Benedict has previously criticized Bush and Blair and Olmert for fighting the War on Terror. Last Tuesday he merely critized the jihadis as well.

See my longer post on another thread:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1700508/posts?page=5#5

[bornacatholic]

are different than those of the late Pope John Paul II, who infuriated many conservative Catholics when he kissed a Koran, an act normally reserved for the Gospels.

Balderdash. He also kissed innumerable runways and individuals. Whe he kised the Koran he was doing so acknowledging gratitude for the gift

[narses]

+

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[restornu]

web] Every now and then, you get to see a reporter gently suggest that a major religious leader - take Pope Benedict XVI, example - has tried to pull a fast one. That may be what's happening in this story earlier this week by New York Times reporter Ian Fisher about the pope's complicated address on faith and reason, which included a highly significant illustration linked to Islam.

Actually, I think that Fisher did a good job of getting at the heart of this one.

Let's face it: Popes are not sound-bite-friendly speakers. They have been known to float a policy balloon or two in the midst of a doctrinal tidal wave (how's that for a mixed metaphor). I have seen bishops, in a debate here in America, lapse into Italian or Latin during public remarks so that journalists cannot quote them. It's a nice trick.

***

Isn't it the Dems and media always preaching it is not right to assume or tried to read anothers mind.

These reporters are playing with others lives with their OPINIONS their carelessness could continue this rif and even get the POPE killed and the Vatican bombed!