BIRTH OF MARY, September 8th

EWTN.com ^ | not giben | A. Valentini

[Bainbridge]

Frankly, the logic of your post escapes me.
I see that you attend a Presbyterian church yet continually pop-up defending Roman Catholic doctrine that is plainly at odds with anything you might find outside of their church. So, I guess one could say that you are rather "eclectic".

[PandaRosaMishima]

My parents are Unitarians; I went to a Baptist high school and a Quaker college where I studied Buddhism. Why wouldn't I be eclectic?

[Bainbridge]

Unitarians:those who believe in, at most, one god.

[Frank Sheed]

You seem to love the book of John. What do you make of this:

"John 21: 24-25. It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true. There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."

Okay. Do you think everything Christ told His disciples is recorded? That is where Tradition comes from...an oral teaching that is passed on. Some was codified and some was not.

As for your analogy regarding Christ's sacrifice, He ransomed us. He went in and paid the bail bondsman for our full offense. However, you still must open the door of the cell, walk across the floor and leave the prison. That requires YOUR cooperation.

It sounds to me as if you do feel the once saved always saved route is what has happened. I do not. I give you Mark Shea's analogy told here:

http://www.mark-shea.com/salvation.html

Peace!

[William Terrell]

The Matthew and Mark passages are crystal clear. They record Jesus' words that He considered His mother no more important than anyone who hears and does the will of God.

Your basis of reasoning is what you have been taught by men what the scriptures say, not what they actually say. I think it is a mistake and Jesus called the Pharisees and Sadducees to task about it.

In my opinion, if you are lead into the worship of idols and images by human authority, you are still liable for it. Note that those who were led into the worship of an idol during the Exodus bore the displeasure of God, not just the leaders.

[Mrs. Don-o]

The Israelites who worshipped idols in the OT were condemned for doing just that: worshipping idols. The Christians who honor Jesus' mother will be commended for doing just that: honoring His mother.

If you can't see the difference here, then I'm sorry, I can't help you. I only wonder why you've intruded on this celebration-of-Mary's-birthday thread. If you don't care for the honoree, it's generally appreciated if you refrain from showing up at the party.

[William Terrell]

What about a statue of Mary, that catholics kneel down and pray before, does not fit the term "graven image"?

Graven - cut into a desired shape (Example: "Graven images")
Image - a representation of a person (especially in the form of sculpture)

[Mrs. Don-o]

God did not and does not forbid the making of religious statues. In fact, He commanded the making of statues for His temple. That in itself shows that your interpretation of the First Commandment is incorrect, since it is disproved in the same books of the Bible which contain the Decalogue:

Exodus 25:18
"You shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat.

See also:

Exodus 25:19

Exodus 25:20

Exodus 25:22

Exodus 26:1

Exodus 26:31

Exodus 36:8

Exodus 36:35

Exodus 37:7

Exodus 37:8

Exodus 37:9

Numbers 7:89

1 Kings 6:23

1 Kings 6:25

1 Kings 6:27

1 Kings 6:28

1 Kings 6:29

1 Kings 6:32

1 Kings 6:35

1 Kings 7:29

1 Kings 7:36

That's a whole lot of God-approved carving of graven images, my dear.

There's no doubt that what God forbids is for people to adore any creature rather than the Creator; and that includes statues and carvings, and much else besides.

Your second misunderstanding is in interpreting all expressions of honor and veneration as worship, even when the difference, well-understood in Exodus and defined with great precision by the Seventh Ecumenical Council, has been plainly and repeatedly explained to you.

Go back and look at post #203.

And please retract your mistaken statement that we worship statues. I am your neighbor. You are bearing false witness. There is a commandment about that.

[William Terrell]

You are bearing false witness.

Down the road from me is a hay field where sometime in the past someone said they saw a vision of Mary. Now, there is a statue of Mary in that field. I watch people come there, kneel down before that statue and pray. Afterward, they put money in a box protected by wire hardware cloth.

I say it as I see it. That is not false witness. If I were to say it, having not seen it, that would be false witness.

Did any of the Israelites kneel and worship these cherubims, pray to them, sacrifice material possessions to them?

Worship - a feeling of profound love and admiration - show devotion to (a deity) - love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate as an idol.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Whether the people who saw a dubius vision in a hayfield, put up a statue, and made gestures of veneration to it were worshipping it or not, I don't know. I don't even know if they were Catholic, or claimed to be. There are plenty of spurious apparitions, not approved by the Church; and there are superstitious people who pay no heed to the commandments and doctrines we have from Christ.

What I can say for sure is that the Catholic church has carefully defined what "adoration" is, and carefully distinguishes it from honor, veneration, and other forms of respect. The Church teaches that adoration ("latria") must never be offered to any creature, but to the Creator alone.

If you want to criticize idolatry, fine; but do not attribute it to the Catholic Church which already condemns it.

[phatus maximus]

You seem to love the book of John. What do you make of this:

"John 21: 24-25. It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true. There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."


Well, it's clear that the passage tells us what is obviously true...not all actions or spoken words are written down. Obviously the Gospel was indeed passed on thru verbal conversation just like is today as well as in written form. What I think is an impasse for folks of my ilk and folks of your ilk is that it's not that we think the only things that are written down are what was passed on, but anything and i mean anything that is of the level of doctrine should meet the standards set forth in scripture. Allow me to give an example again:

Imagine we are back in the early first century and we hear an apostle preaching. What he is saying is going to be consistent with God's inspired written Word (yes I'm fully aware the canon is not in place yet), but the Apostles did not preach a Gospel contrary to the Holy Writ, they spoke the same message. To say that the New Testament did not exist during that time is only partly accurate as the text of the epistles were widespread and known during the lifes of those that wrote them. Yes there were other false texts but the Body of Christ knew the inspired works by compring them to existing scripture as the Word tells us.

Allow me to ask you a question. Do you in your heart of hearts truely believe that the Apostles spread the word of the immaculate conception to the faithful along with the Gospel of Christ? Do you believe that the concept of purgatory was preached as doctrine along with their oral traditions they passed down? If so, why do you think (I'm strictly asking for your opinion here) that there are no writings explictly speaking of these items in Paul, Peter or John's writings like there is about salvation and other doctrine - granted the Immaculate Conception is dogma only I believe (correct me if I am wrong). I agree, the Gospel was spread orally and by text, but the most key and absolute items were consistenly written so that the truth could be spread and compared to when hearing what was taught.

On to the other item:

As for your analogy regarding Christ's sacrifice, He ransomed us. He went in and paid the bail bondsman for our full offense. However, you still must open the door of the cell, walk across the floor and leave the prison. That requires YOUR cooperation..

Of course it requires our cooperation, but that cooperation is faith, is it not? We cannot be saved without believing (see John 3:18 - yes, I do love John's gospel!). Also as James tells us we must have a living faith as a dead faith is really no faith at all and a living faith is one in which we are actively doing the will of God, loving Him and our fellow mankind. The good deeds we do are prepared for us by Christ and we can only do them when we are in a state of faith. Apart from Christ we can do nothing, but in Christ we are the light of the world.

In your example above, are you ransomed whether or not you leave prison? In the eyes of the judge you are--you've been paid for and if you choose to not believe that you are free to go and remain in the prison you may (although I suspect you'd be escorted out by some guards if you lingered). My point is that we are ransomed, saved, paid for, forgiven by Christ's sacrifice. If we ignore this fact, i.e. don't believe and reject this we are not saved. So no, I am not a once saved always saved in those terms. Nor am I a once I believe I'm saved and now I can do whatever I want saved either. Christ tells us we must repent of our sin and go and sin no more so just because we are welcomed to the Father thru the Holy Spirit and Christ does it mean we're in no matter what we continue to do or not do from then on. Christ's one perfect sacrifice is sufficient for all sin and those who put their complete trust and faith in him shall live, so sayeth scripture, Amen!!

I hope that helps clarify my position.

Thanks for the respectful discussion, I enjoy "talking" with others that way...

In Christ.

[William Terrell]

A major Catholic church organization put up the statue and exhibit. At lest twice I have crept pass two miles of cars parked on both side of the rural highway, presided over by state police.

This would be the same organization that runs the Catholic transmission towers on the hill that transmits, to four cardinal directions, microwave so strong that it interferres with telephones and VCRs.

No, I don't think it's a splinter organization.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Where are you?

There have been only about a dozen Marian apparitions over the past 500 years which have been investigated and given ecclesial approval, eight of them in the 20th century:

Fatima (Portugal), Beauraing (Belgium), Banneux (Belgium), Akita (Japan), Syracuse (Italy), Zeitoun (Egypt), Manila (Philippines), and Betania (Venezuela).

There have been hundreds reported, but, as I say, only 8 investigated and approved.

So I'm wondering whether you (1) live in, for instance, Venezuela, or (2) some local organization is giving support to a dubious phenomenon, which makes me go "Hmmm..."

Or maybe you're talking about Bayside or Conyers, or one of the other "manifestations" which has been definitely repudiated by the church as inauthentic -- but which nevertheless continue to attract the disobedient, the dissenters, and the dingbats.

[William Terrell]

I'm in the Birmingham area.

I don't know that it matters. I see Catholic folks kneel before statutes of Mary and Jesus all the time.

I assume you're Catholic. Haven't you?

[Mrs. Don-o]

We've discussed this before.

I have no doubt that there are some Catholics who have a superstitious regard for statues. (I have never actually met any.) In this, they would be distorting or even denying the Catholic faith.

However, kneeling before a statue doesn't in itself mean worshipping a statue, any more than saluting a flag or kissing a love letter means worshipping cloth or paper.

Gestures of honor and reverence must be evaluated according to the customs and intentions of the person making the gesture. Leave custom and intention out of your purview, and you lose all possibility of right judgment.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Oh! Crap! I think I've found out what's going on.

I googled Apparitions Birmingham and came up with the information that this is Caritas, a Medjuogorje-promoting group.

First of all, this is a cult, with no ties either to the diocese of Birmingham or to any lay movement recognized by Rome.

Second, this article, if anything, downplays the weirdness of this outfit. They are by no means "fundamentalist," if by that term you mean adhering to basic doctrine and discipline. They're apparently pretty notorious, since even the Medjugorje people in former Yugoslavia --- themselves a highly dubious group who have operated from the git-go in a position of defiance against their own bishop ---don't want anything to do with them.

Third, the article says, "Although the church has not authenticated the visions (in former Yugoslavia), the Vatican permits religious pilgrimages to Medjugorje." Not so: the church explicitly forbids official (diocesan) pilgrimages there. Caritas --- the Birmingham organization --- is the biggest outfit in the USA organizing Medjugorje pilgrimages.

Orec (pastor in Medjugorje) wrote, "Regarding this I wish to inform you that we have nothing to do with them and we have notified them to cease their activities. If either is still doing this he is acting on his own."

Plus "Caritas has absolutely no connection with the Diocese of Birmingham. There are no canonical links."

"In a letter that Ed Locks received in January, James Frances Stafford, a Catholic cardinal based in Rome, expressed concern for the families who have children at Caritas. He also said Caritas has no chance of being recognized as a lay organization in the Roman Catholic church.

(You could have figured this out on your own in about 10 minutes by googling the info., or even by reading the BIRMINGHAM POST-HERALD, but nevermind: glad to oblige.)

What I said in a previous post about "the disobedient, the dissenters, and the dingbats" applies in spades to Caritas/Birmingham. If you find their activites disgusting, welcome to the club.

[Salvation]

But the Bible asks us to pray for others.

And we can ask Mary to pray for us, too! Nothing at all wrong with that.

[Ciexyz]

Another reason for joy during this Christmas season.

[Ciexyz]

Lovely inspirational artwork, thanks for posting.

[Kolokotronis]

"Lovely inspirational artwork, thanks for posting."

Indeed it is a beautiful icon, both inspirational and didactic. And you are very welcome!