Justification: Vital Now & Always (Reformed Caucus)

Modern Reformation Magazine ^ | 1994 | Michael S. Horton

[Iscool]

All of true Israel will be saved. Justified = saved.

Which of course you figure means you...

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

You sure that's you??? I'm a Christian and the bible says that group of people is the enemy of the Gospel for my sake...

And why did you leave out the verse before it???

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul says don't be ignorant of the mystery...That's MYSTERY...

Israel has been blinded until, until, until the God is done with the Gentiles...He will then remove the blindfold from the REAL Israel and deal with them...

But, believe whatever you want...

[DungeonMaster]

So after all that, you believe that someone can be justified but not be saved?

[Iscool]

So after all that, you believe that someone can be justified but not be saved?

Shirley, you jest...

[HarleyD]

Harley-Catholics have reinterpreted the atonement...no mention of Christ dying as a subsitute for your sins...they have reinterpreted the atonement to mean it was only an act of love.

Campion-That's nonsense, Harley.

I thought as much as well. I was told otherwise by Catholics. I still couldn't believe it so I went to new advent. Regrettably, I was wrong.

The Doctrine of the Atonement

[HarleyD]

The Council of Trent it a misleading doctrine. Canon 1 sounds great but it is full of contradictions. For example:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

It is a mismash of rubbish. It doesn't really believe in God's grace but simply working your way to heaven. But you're comfortable where you're at so have at it.

[FJ290]

It is a mismash of rubbish. It doesn't really believe in God's grace but simply working your way to heaven. But you're comfortable where you're at so have at it.

That's not true, but a misrepresentation of Catholicism as you see it. Do all Protestants throw out the book of St. James so that they can justify faith alone? Do you disregard St. Matthew 25?

[Campion]

I thought as much as well. I was told otherwise by Catholics. I still couldn't believe it so I went to new advent. Regrettably, I was wrong.

I guess you didn't bother to read what you found there?

Right at the top of the article you link is a quotation from the Council of Trent:

Him God had proposed as a propitiator, through faith in His blood (Romans 3:25), for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world (I John ii, 2).

"Propitiator" is one who propitiates. To "propitiate" is to turn aside wrath or appease. Christ propitiates. Through faith. Through His blood. For our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world.

No mention of Christ dying as a substitute for us, for our sins? How come you can't find it at all, and I can find it in the second paragraph?

[Campion]

The Council of Trent ... It is a mismash of rubbish.

I feel the same way about the Westminster Confession, but I usually make an effort to be polite about it.

Now, then. It's really quite simple.

1. Justification, positionally, is divine sonship, not through nature, but through adoption. The baptized Christian is literally a son of God, through grace.
2. No good works can "deserve" positional justification, precisely in the same sense that no amount of mowing my lawn by the neighbor boy would cause me to adopt him as my son. It has to be given, as a gift. That doesn't mean that there is no coöperation of the will involved at any point. (If I offer to adopt the neighbor boy and he stares at me mutely, I might decide he's not really interested.)
3. Justification, ontologically, is a created participation in the divine life of the Blessed Trinity, infused into the soul of the justified man. A justified man has supernatural life, God dwelling within him. An unjustified man is supernaturally dead. Theologians call this supernatural life "sanctifying grace".
4. Similarly, there are no good works which can "deserve" ontological justification (aka sanctifying grace). I mean, to say otherwise is practically blasphemous -- as though there would be something that I could do that would not only render my soul a fit dwelling place for Almighty God, but obligate him to take up residence there? Well, if it's not blasphemous, it's certainly ridiculous.
5. However, once having been justified, a justified man is a son of God by adoption and indwelt by the Blessed Trinity. He is both capable of performing good works, and, when he does so, they strengthen the grace already dwelling within him. This is why St. Paul can say "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phillipians 2:12) and St. Peter can say "be even more diligent to make your call and election sure" (2 Pt 1:10)

[ladyinred]

My Harley, that was a long article at that link, but really very interesting and informing! Your post was worded to perfection by the way! :-)

[Iscool]

Obviously you and Campion have different views on justification...Does your church teach two different doctrines???

[ladyinred]

Don't all Christians, if they do what we are supposed to anyway, do good works whether or not we think we are justified by faith, or by faith and works? Does it really matter so much what we think, or is it more important what we DO?

[FJ290]

Obviously you and Campion have different views on justification...Does your church teach two different doctrines???

No. What I was replying to is that there the article posted did not reveal ALL of the Council of Trent as to faith and works. It was misleading in that it led one to believe that the Church was only promoting justification by works and not by faith and works.

What do you do with St. James? Why won't anyone who is Protestant answer me on this?

"Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" St. James 2:24

"For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead."St. James 2:26

Catholic Catechism:

1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God."78 For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God's will. "The righteous shall live by faith." Living faith "work[s] through charity."79

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But "faith apart from works is dead":81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

There's your answer as to our doctrines.

[Campion]

Obviously you and Campion have different views on justification

We do? It must not be as obvious as you think, because neither of us can see it. :-)

FJ290 asked a very worthwhile question. If works have nothing to do with justification -- notice, please, that I said works strengthen justification, though they cannot earn it in the first place -- then what do you do with James chapter 2?

Luther, bless his heart, said at one point that the right thing to do with "Jimmy" was to throw him in the fire. Old Martin did have a certain blunt consistency about him. ;-)

[FJ290]

Don't all Christians, if they do what we are supposed to anyway, do good works whether or not we think we are justified by faith, or by faith and works? Does it really matter so much what we think, or is it more important what we DO?

I think it is important what we do.

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."

For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass.

For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was.

I've met some Christians that think if they lift one finger to help someone they might be accused of acting out a "works" salvation. I've met some that think they don't have to do anything since they feel Jesus did it all on the Cross and that doing any good work is not required.

How do you feel about it? Do you feel that it's important to help others and practice the works of charity Jesus told us to or not?

[FJ290]

We do? It must not be as obvious as you think, because neither of us can see it. :-)

Yeah..uh.. I don't see that we have different views at all. We're saying the same thing except worded differently.

[ladyinred]

Although I was raised in a denomination that believes justification by faith alone, I personally believe yes, we most certainly are commanded to help others, and to show Christian love to others.

To me it is very clear in the scriptures, but the problem may stem from some who don't really read the Bible for themselves. Too many people just accept whatever they are taught without checking it out in the word of God. Sad about the people you mentioned in your post. I can't understand thinking like that!

[FJ290]

Although I was raised in a denomination that believes justification by faith alone, I personally believe yes, we most certainly are commanded to help others, and to show Christian love to others.

That's good. You struck me as the kind of person that liked to help others.

To me it is very clear in the scriptures, but the problem may stem from some who don't really read the Bible for themselves. Too many people just accept whatever they are taught without checking it out in the word of God. Sad about the people you mentioned in your post. I can't understand thinking like that!

Yes, it's sad. I don't understand it either, but there are those who feel that way. Most unfortunate.

[Iscool]

I've met some Christians that think if they lift one finger to help someone they might be accused of acting out a "works" salvation. I've met some that think they don't have to do anything since they feel Jesus did it all on the Cross and that doing any good work is not required.

I haven't met any of these but if you say they're out there, I believe you...

As far as acting out a works-salvation, the non-Catholics that I run with don't have that problem because the salvation thing is a one time deal...When it done, it's done...And then there is no conflict with good works...

[FJ290]

I haven't met any of these but if you say they're out there, I believe you...

Thanks for that at least.

As far as acting out a works-salvation, the non-Catholics that I run with don't have that problem because the salvation thing is a one time deal...When it done, it's done...And then there is no conflict with good works...

See.. I don't think we are really that far apart. I think it is more of a communication breakdown. Let me ask you this, do you accept what St. James says that faith without works is dead?

[Iscool]

What do you do with St. James? Why won't anyone who is Protestant answer me on this?

A lot of Protestants haven't figured this out either...They just think the bible contradicts itself...

Mat. 25:32 is a judgement of Nations, at the end of the Tribulation (Joel 3:2,12,14)...The people of the Nations are likened to sheep and goats...And their judgement is based on feeding and clothing God's brethren; visiting His brethren in prison...The brethren are Jews in the Tribulation...The sheep are folks saved by faith and works...

This is not the last judgement...Heaven and Earth has not passed away...At the last judgement, the unsaved dead are judged...In the last judgement, the criterion is your name being in the book of life...Here, the criterion is works towards someone...In the last judgement, no one inherits a kingdom...Here, they do...

The sheep are not saved people from this age since we are saved by faith alone...(Eph. 2:8-10, John 3:36; 5:24)...

The sheep are not saved people from this age, for saved people in this age became sinless angels at the first resurrection (Mat. 22:30) and are found with Christ at this judgement...(Mat. 25:31,32)They are not being judged by Him (Dan. 7:8-11)...

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

No one in the chapter mentions rejecting Christ, or rejecting the Gospel...The lost are not condemned until the 2nd coming of Christ...Yet, everyone of the lost is condemned already...And not for not ministering to the brethren...

The THRONE OF HIS GLORY is the Throne of King David...It's a physical throne on earth...(Mat. 19:28; Jer. 14:21; Psa. 102:16; Luke 1:32)...

And just prior to this judgement there's going to be a little war...(Joel 3:9-15)...

James chapter 2 falls in with Mat. chapters 24,25...James was written primarily to Jews during the Tribulation that will require faith, and works for salvation...The Christians saved by faith alone are gone...They will show up with Christ to judge the 12 Tribes of Israel and the Gentile Nations...Christ will sit on the Throne of David, in Jerusalem, for a thousand years...And then, the White Throne Judgment...

That's what I do with James chapter 2...