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Dominus vobiscum.

In all sincerity...

1 posted on 08/21/2006 8:31:25 AM PDT by fishtank
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To: fishtank; Jim Robinson

Cathloic = Catholic

FR still doesn't have an article preview that includes the thread title.....


2 posted on 08/21/2006 8:32:37 AM PDT by fishtank
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To: fishtank; american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ...
Please accept my deepest sympathies on the loss of your relative.

I'd like to know what is considered necessary for a Catholic to at least enter Purgatory upon death

Not to die in a state of mortal sin.

3 posted on 08/21/2006 8:42:21 AM PDT by NYer
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To: fishtank
Sorry for your loss.

One thing is that you just won't know, as you won't know what was in this relative's heart at the hour of his/her death.

The Lord promised great mercy to all who call upon His name, as reported her from a dialogue with St. Faustina:

Our Lord said to the servant of God, Sr. Faustina: "Unceasingly recite this chaplet that I have taught you. Whover will recite it will receive great mercy at the hour of death ... Priests will recommend it to sinners as a last hope of salvation. Even the most hardened sinner, if he recites this chaplet even once, will receive grace from my infinite mercy. Oh, what graces I will grant souls who will recite this chaplet... By means of it you can ask and obtain anything if what you ask will be compatible with my will.... I want the whole world to know my infinite mercy. I want to give unimaginable graces to those who trust in my mercy...

So hope is not lost...

4 posted on 08/21/2006 8:50:51 AM PDT by markomalley (Vivat Iesus!)
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To: fishtank

I am very sorry for your loss, fishtank. I wouldn't think of turning it into a theological debate.


5 posted on 08/21/2006 8:53:02 AM PDT by Bahbah (Goldwasser, Regev and Shalit, we are praying for you...and now Steve and Olaf.)
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To: fishtank

I'm a Roman Catholic who does not believe in purgatory. I'd like to think that most of my loved ones have gone to heaven. If they haven't, I certainly would not know now and when I die, it wouldn't matter then. My father died a few years ago and I just take it for granted that he went to heaven. Don't spend too much time torturing yourself over this more than the natural time of grieving allows. God bless.


6 posted on 08/21/2006 8:57:37 AM PDT by cyborg (No I don't miss the single life at all.)
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To: fishtank

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html


7 posted on 08/21/2006 8:58:53 AM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: fishtank

Condolences on your loss!

As someone said, not to die in a state of mortal sin - that is, unrepented, willful, deliberate sin, involving a serious matter.

Something that comforts me over my relatives is to think of the image used by C.S. Lewis in describing judgment: The person who has died comes face to face with the Lord Jesus. Either he loves Jesus on sight, because (whatever the person's individual failings, weaknesses, damage, etc.) he longed for truth, beauty, goodness, and holiness ... or he will hate Jesus on sight, because in his life he deliberately rejected all that Jesus is and represents.

The person who loves Jesus will at some point be united with Him in Heaven, perhaps after suffering purgation (cleansing from the effects of sin, and remaining self-love.) The person who hates Jesus when he meets Him will be unable to be near Him, ever.


9 posted on 08/21/2006 9:02:11 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Mother of a horde: it's not just an adventure - it's a job!)
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To: fishtank

Keeping it simple - We are a pilgrim Church, we do not have all the answers. Scripture says "Only the perfect shall enter heaven " but we know most of us when we die will not be perfect - yet we believe we will somehow enter heaven.
Logic then says there must be some manner of purification, maybe suffering, maybe an infusion of God's redeeming grace - who knows. For lack of a better explanation over the years this situation of "becoming perfect" has been called purgatory. Maybe in time we will get a better way of explaining it.
Of course the dogmatic among us will cite canon law, the catechism, mortal and venial sins etc, but I'm a simple pilgrim.


11 posted on 08/21/2006 9:05:15 AM PDT by VidMihi
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To: fishtank

Please accept my condolences for your loss.

I'm not sure that now is the time for you to think about a theological point that you do not believe is even true and cannot affect in any event.

Peace in Christ


12 posted on 08/21/2006 9:06:32 AM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: fishtank

I see your question has been answered. In addition, I'd like to add that there are many levels of purgatory, as there are in hell and also heaven. We choose our destination of our own free will; ie., we are not "sent" there. Because when we die we know all our own sins and although they are "forgiven" already, we must be purified. If they weren't forgiven, we would never have any hope of attaining the purification of those sharing heaven with Our Lord and Almighty Father.


13 posted on 08/21/2006 9:11:09 AM PDT by Integrityrocks
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To: fishtank
Purgatory is a very comforting extension of God's mercy given to mankind. "Nothing unclean shall enter heaven", the Scriptures tell us. But we all know that we have not totally given our lives to Christ. We generally have charecter traits that the in the presence of God, would be highly embarrassing. We must be cleansed of all such attachments to the world. We must crucify the desires of the flesh and totally follow the Risen Lord to enter into His eternal presence. Most of us will likely not be in that state upon our deaths.

Purgatory gives us a final opportunity to make amends to God. It is a merciful opportunity to become holy. God sees through us - that we know in an abstract way. But it will become painfully obvious to us as we stand before Him during our judgment. If we are of a general persuasion towards God, we will greatly desire to correct ourselves in the eyes of our loving Father. We know this from our own life and loves. Don't we desire to be seen in a good light by our beloved? Doesn't a child greatly desire to be pleasing to their father? This is what love calls us to do - to make ourselves (with grace) fitting in God's eyes. Purgatory is a consoling belief that God continues to bring all things to Himself, even when we have not been very forward in trying to be what we are called to be.

Regards

14 posted on 08/21/2006 9:11:13 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Crysostom - Phil 2:8)
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To: fishtank
You may find this useful: The Doctrine of Purgatory by Fr. John A. Hardon.

-Theo

15 posted on 08/21/2006 9:17:42 AM PDT by Teófilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: fishtank
Condolences on your loss...all of our prayers are with you.

My aunt died not too long ago, and she received the last sacraments. But still, as a Catholic I confess to not having any idea of the final destination of her soul--whether she went to heaven or purgatory or hell.

But I find a great deal of comfort in praying for her soul...that whatever happens, God may have mercy upon her.

16 posted on 08/21/2006 9:20:35 AM PDT by Claud
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To: fishtank
Condolences on your loss, and we will pray. Somebody's already noted that only folks with a mortal (i.e. serious) sin on their souls, committed with full knowledge and intention, and with no mitigating circumstances, are in danger of Hell.

And I'll be the second person on this thread to cite C.S. Lewis . . . he points out that God exists outside of time, so that all of our heartfelt prayers for your relative, even if made after the actual event, will be seen by God from all time and thus applied where they are intended. I think a Divine Mercy Chaplet would be a really good idea, and I'll offer one for your relative.

. . . another thought. Scott Hahn, who was a Presbyterian minister before he converted to Catholicism, describes Purgatory as like your receiving an invitation to a beautiful party . . . but you've been cleaning the yard or digging a ditch and you're a mess! You need a bath, a shave, a shampoo, and some appropriate "wedding garments" . . . I hope to make it to Purgatory, I think I'll see a lot of my friends there. I would imagine that only the great saints would feel comfortable in the Divine Presence without some time to get their act together.

20 posted on 08/21/2006 9:43:14 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: fishtank

From my catechism days, so it might be dated - As long as you haven't a mortal sin with you when you go, you're in. Time is spent in pergatory for all the venial stuff. But there is only one way to go after pergatory. And that's to heaven.


21 posted on 08/21/2006 9:44:19 AM PDT by b4its2late (There are good terrorists - dead ones.)
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To: fishtank
Dear fishtank, I understand, I think, at least some of the feelings you have for your departed relative. You feel love for him or her (you didn't say if it was a man or a woman, so I'll say "him"), you greatly desire his salvation, you feel some anxiety perhaps over his faults and failings and weaknesses and flaws, and you'd do anything you could to make sure this dear person has eternal peace and joy.

All these feelings you have come from God, are pleasing to God, and are close to the heart of God. Jesus Christ has the same love, the same desire, the same willingness to "do anything," only 10,000 times more! Nobody could want the salvation of your loved one more than Jesus Christ Himself wants it. And He is powerful, powerful to save. Rescuing sinners is His specialty, and He is brilliant at it. "Savior" is His name!

God knows that, because of love, we want to be able to help each other out. That's what St. Paul's teaching about the Mystical Body of Christ is all about: we are like cells or organs or parts of Christ, and we DO help each other spiritually, all the time.

Go ahead and pray for your relative. I will pray, too. God hears these prayers outside of time and space; there is no "before" and "after" in eternity. Pray for the forgiveness of all of your relative's sins, however small or big they may be, and for his soul to be made beautiful, clean and bright and delightful to God, through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

22 posted on 08/21/2006 10:23:04 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Purity of Christ, save us.)
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To: fishtank
To enter Purgatory a soul has to die in friendship with God, in a state of grace. To be a friend one has to refrain from acts seriously hurt the friendship.

A sin that hurts this friendship has three parts. It has to be:
(1) so serious that it breaks all fellowship with God (it is a Grave Matter);
(2) has to be fully know by the person to be so serious that it breaks all fellowship with God (the sinner has Full Knowledge);
(3) the person has to want and agree to the sin without any kind of mitigating circumstances (the sinner give Deliberate Consent to committing the sin).

God does not want His children to break friendship with Him. He wants your relative to be eternally in His presence, more than even you do. His mercy is truly infinite.
23 posted on 08/21/2006 10:46:39 AM PDT by Talking_Mouse (Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just... Thomas Jefferson)
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To: fishtank
I consider myself as a Catholic who is both pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II. Purgatory is for someone who has made a sacramental confession (confessed their sins to a priest) but have to make recompense for these sins in order to become perfect enough to get into to Heaven.

Many of us will be glad to make it to Purgatory because that would mean that we will get to Heaven eventually.

I think you could find some good information on www.ewtn.com.

God bless you!

26 posted on 08/21/2006 1:32:18 PM PDT by GinaLolaB (Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. — Jesus (John 15:1)
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To: fishtank
My sympathies on your loss.

As is readily apparent, there is considerable uncertainty on Rome's side about their eternal destination and how and why people will go through Origen's purgatory or go to heaven or hell.

Luke 23:43 KJV   And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Unless Jesus was lying to the thief, then this notion of purgatory seems problematic.

Perhaps a quick look at Gill will help:
...And because this was a matter of great importance, and an instance of amazing grace, that so vile a sinner, one of the chief of sinners, should immediately enter into the kingdom of God, and enjoy uninterrupted, and everlasting communion with him and that it might not be a matter of doubt with him, or others, Christ, who is the "Amen", the faithful witness, and truth itself, prefaces it after this manner: "verily I say unto thee"; it is truth, it may be depended on. This instance of grace stands on record, not to cherish sloth, indolence, security and presumption, but to encourage faith and hope in sensible sinners, in their last moments, and prevent despair. The Papists pretend to know this man's name; they say his name was Disma; and reckon him as a martyr, and have put him in the catalogue of saints, and fixed him on the "twenty fifth" of March.

(The story of the penitent thief has sometimes been considered the most surprising, the most suggestive, the most instructive incident in all the Gospel narrative. ... In the salvation of one of the thieves, vital theology finds one of its finest demonstrations.

Sacrementalism was refuted, for the thief was saved without recourse to baptism, the Lord's Supper, church, ceremony, or good works.

The dogma of purgatory was refuted, for this vile sinner was instantly transformed into a saint and made fit for paradise apart from his personal expiation of a single sin.

The teaching of universalism was refuted, for only one was saved of all who might have been saved. Jesus did not say, "Today shall ye be with me in paradise", but "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

The notion of soul-sleep was refuted, for the clear implication of the entire incident is that the redeemed thief would be in conscious fellowship with his Saviour in paradise even while his body disintegrated in some grave.

Too, it is doubtful whether any other gospel incident presents the plan of salvation more clearly or simply.--Dr. Charles R. Erdman)
Given that these were among the last words Jesus spoke in His ministry and this thief was the last sinner He evangelized, I trust we can take Him at His word. That so much of the doctrines of grace are confirmed from this single statement by our Savior is a blessed teaching to us and an assurance of our security in Christ. Our Savior will save us as scipture promises and He has paid our full ransom in His own blood, once and for all.
29 posted on 08/21/2006 2:20:23 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: fishtank

I think at this point many answers have already been given. I wanted to give you my sympathies for your loss. Prayers are with you and your family. God bless!


31 posted on 08/21/2006 2:56:00 PM PDT by FJ290
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