Posted on 08/18/2006 10:52:01 AM PDT by NYer
Our Father contradicts several aspects of Propestant theology. The necessity of works of charity is one. The continuing rather than one time salvation is another (temptation, deliver from evil). The existence of free will and our ability to conform our will to the Divine Will is another (your will be done on earth). We should not neglect the hint at the Eucharist in the "supersubstantial bread".
OK, I'll bite...where does the need for works of charity show up in the Lord's Prayer? Let's review the text and take it line by line and in context (my comments to the right):
Our Father who Art in Heaven (properly addressing our Father)
Hallowed be Thy Name (Giving true honor to God's name)
Thy Kingdom Come (Confessing that we wish to see God's Kingdom reign supreme)
Thy Will be done (Confessing our subordination to God's perfect Will)
on earth as it is in Heaven (Acknowledging where God's Will is authoritative)
Give us this day our daily bread (You say this is a hint to the Eucharist, perhaps it is, I lean more toward asking for God to give us what we need daily for faith so pretty much the same thing I suppose).
Forgive us our sins (Admission we sin and the need to be forgiven)
as we forgive those who sin against us (Matches other scripture and proclomations by Christ that we must forgive each other lest we are not forgiven)
Lead us not into temptation (Help us to stay devoted to God and not to stray)
But deliver us from Evil (Bring us to you and away from Satan and all his tactics and filth)
So where exactly does the Lords prayer state the necessity of works of charity? The only remotely close statement I could see you support is forgiving each other, but I'm not quite sure that's a mandate to do works of charity and especially as part of salvation which is where I'm guessing you'll say that Protestants just don't understand that they are lacking in terms of saving faith..
I look forward to your reply...Blessings in Christ!
It's contained right here in this line:
Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven
See Matt 25:31-46. Here's a cut, Matt 25:34-36
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'"
Matt 5:1-10 "Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them saying:
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
"(Confessing our subordination to God's perfect Will)"
God's will can only be recognized by rational examination and judgement. It takes an act of free will to do that and to decide and act accordingly.
I have a simple rule: Answer substantive questions once, ignore the rest. Trolls either go away or bump the thread to the top.
Thank you for your question.
You spin the prayer a bit here and there, (e.g I'd say that we don't confess subordination to Divine Will, but rather we ask that our will on Earth conforms with it), but there is nothing in your commentary that I would strongly object to.
The hint at the Eucharist ins in the Greek original, hyperousion. That literally means "supersubstantial", therein the hint. St. Jerome translated it differently, in Matthew's literally and in Luke's as "daily". That is because the Greek word is normally used to indicate amount necessary for subsistence, but the Greek etymology is hyper+ousia, "super+substance". Why did St. Jerome use the analytical rather than dictionary approach for Matthew's? The speculation is, he suspected that Matthew, who originally wrote in Hebrew, was not used to spoken Greek and perhaps used the Greek word thinking that it had the abstract meaning. It is, of course, consistent with the metaphore of Jesus as the bread of life, and God's supreme gift to us.
The commandment to forgive others is the commandment to do works of charity. This is consistent with charity being the supreme theological virtue according to St. Paul. Let us remember that wehn we speak of works of charity in the theological sense we mean not necessarily charitable contributions to United Way or something, but rather acting in a loving way. Cornerstone of such work of love is forgiveness.
Is the commandment linked to our own salvation? Most definitely, because the prayer (of course, also multiple parables and passages in the Gospel, most directly Matthew 25) links the forgiveness that we give to the forgiveness of our sin, and the latter is salvation.
Thank you...i too don't see anything I'd strongly object to...I think it's good to have dialogue the explains positions rather than just say "those CAtholics or those Protestants believe this or that" without asking each other what we mean...I appreciate you explaining your thoughts.
God Bless you and may He live and reign in your heart!
"I've read"
You make a statement like that without even citing a source?
I've read that 100% of Catholic bashers are secret supporters of Hillary Clinton, worship Snickers bars and suffer from severe head lice.
Actually I haven't.
But I'd cite a source if I had. Have some courage - and try (for once) to not (a) make up odd stories, (b) bash a religion from which all other Christian denominations sprung and (c) go without bathing for more than 72 hours.
Thanks for the post. I loved that!
Hey ... good to see you in the forum again! I've missed your commentaries.
Thank you. This reminds me of my frequent omission to explain that "charity", "caritas" has the simple meaning "love" to a Latin-oriented Catholic. If one picks on the modern meaning of "charity" as something you donate money to, and combines it with the indulgences controversy, bingo, the plain gospel teaching on necessity of forgiveness and love takes on the unintended meaning of simony and "earning one's salvation".
I would have to say that you are a FIRST!
Actually I didn't think of that...It was put to me by some one else...But it's a legitimate question...
Now you're going to be up all night thinking about it...
But I'd cite a source if I had. Have some courage - and try (for once) to not (a) make up odd stories
What odd stories are you referring to???
There is a Church in Jerusa lem, with the Lord's Prayer written in many languages, but oddly,not in the original Hebrew. No "Avinu Shebashamayim" despite the reality that it was the language of prayer for Jesus.
19tc Most mss (L W Θ 0233 Ë13 33 Ï sy sa Didache) read (though some with slight variation) ὅτι σοῦ ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία καὶ ἡ δύναμις καὶ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν (“for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever, amen”) here. The reading without this sentence, though, is attested by generally better witnesses (א B D Z 0170 Ë1 pc lat mae Or). The phrase was probably composed for the liturgy of the early church and most likely was based on 1 Chr 29:11-13; a scribe probably added the phrase at this point in the text for use in public scripture reading (see TCGNT 13-14). Both external and internal evidence argue for the shorter reading.
I've read that over 70% of young to middle age Catholics do not believe in the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist...And over 50% of regular church going Catholics don't believe it either...So don't get uppity with me...Clean up your own house first...
That's flat wrong - and it's a straw man.
Is calling people out for inflamatory false statements somehow against the rules?
The fella in the article apparently didn't feel it was wrong since he wrote a book because of it to encourage Catholics to start believing what the church teaches...
In which case, it is not a straw man arguement...I only found the article and linked to it...Don't get upset with me, I didn't write it...
It appears by the article that things aren't as cut and dried in your church as you would like us to believe...
English is a Germanic language--thanks to the Vikings. The Romans later added Latin, followed by another dose of a Latin language when Wm the Conquerer brought over French.
Dear Religion Moderator,
I noticed that several posts have been pulled. I suspect that one more may have been originally posted by the anti-Catholic poster wandering through this thread.
"Discuss the issues all you want but do not make it personal!"
In that you choose to permit this poster to remain unsuspended, unbanned, the attacks become personal against us Catholics.
In that we have the grace of the Sacraments, we Catholics should refrain from counterattacking the poster who makes the personal, anti-Catholic attacks. However, we are frail and imperfect.
Nonetheless, consider that nothing is done in this forum to stop this anti-Catholic poster, so please forgive us Catholics if we go a bit over the top at times.
Thank you,
sitetest
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