More Weird Liturgy? "Our Lady" Rite Author Inspired By Labyrinth Walk

The Christian Challenge ^ | 7/28/2006 | Lee Penn

[George W. Bush]

She was His mother wasn't she? Therefore she is the Mother of God.

For claity: Mary was the mother of Jesus who was the Son of God. The births of her subsequent children were not virgin births and were ordinary children.

Elevating Mary in this way is falsely devotional and susceptible to the rise of superstitions. But most importantly, it robs Jesus of His fully human nature. The elevation of Mary over other obedient and godly women diminishes the glory of Christ, God and man in one flesh.

Again: when Mary exceeds by one iota the merit of any other godly woman whom the Father might have chosen to bear His Son's flesh, Jesus becomes less than fully human.

A great sermon I once read pointed out how dearly Jesus loved the title Son Of Man. Yes, He was the Son of God. But He gloried in being fully human at the same time. It seems it was something of a wonder to Him how gloriously the Father had incarnated Him in such a humble way.

Please don't rob our Savior of His full and essential humanity.

[George W. Bush]

What next, the Catholic Church hid the truth about Jesus and Mary Magdalen, and Opus Dei sees to it that the truth stays a secret?

Do you know something the rest of us don't? Do tell.

[FJ290]

BTW, my Catholic neighbor mentioned to me on the phone that she got more rain than me a few nights ago by going out and shaking her rosary beads at the storm clouds. I retorted that this was unfair to us humble Baptists and we might retaliate by buying ourselves some groovy "love beads" so we wouldn't be defenseless when Rome's followers try to hog the rain.

What's she doing "shaking" them at the storm clouds? Sounds like a crock to me. A good Catholic would use them for prayer, not as an object to be shaken at the clouds to bring about rain. If she's your neighbor, how did she get more rain than you?

Save your money on those groovy love beads. As long as you got that Catholic neighbor shaking her rosary beads at the clouds, you should be covered. After all, it seems impossible that a neighbor would get more rain than you.

[cyborg]

But wait... don't go to sleep otherwise you'll miss the explanation! ;-)

[Pyro7480]

LOL!

[Pyro7480]

:-)

I hope you and Petronski are having a wonderful time together. I met a wonderful young woman back in December and things are going great. We'll see what happens. God bless!

[FJ290]

Elevating Mary in this way is falsely devotional and susceptible to the rise of superstitions. But most importantly, it robs Jesus of His fully human nature. The elevation of Mary over other obedient and godly women diminishes the glory of Christ, God and man in one flesh.

HUH?? Excuse me here, but Mary is ELEVATED over other women. Who else was chosen to bear the Son of God? I despise it when people put themselves on the same level as Jesus' Holy Mother. It's an ego trip that is amazing to watch. Is that a Baptist trait or something because I've talked to lots of Baptist women who think they are just as good or as holy as Mary. Are you a woman?

It doesn't rob Jesus of His human nature to say that His Mother is the Mother of God. Was He or was He not GOD manifested in the flesh? Truly God and Truly man. You are making Him, IMO, only truly man and taking away from His Divinity with that line of thinking.

[George W. Bush]

Queen of Heaven is a title, not something that states that she is a goddess.

So it is honorific, sort of like the title Queen Of England?

Then it is pointless blather. If she does not enjoy any royal prerogative over heaven or function as the Father's consort, the title of queen is meaningless.

Just because you can call her the Grand Pupita Of Heaven doesn't make her a Grand Pupita or mean that the title has any merit, either scriptural or devotional.

Do you really believe that Mary, a godly woman, would accept any such title that draws attention to her and away from Her Son, her savior and the Savior of all whom the Father shall redeem thought His sacrifice, sanctification, intercession and merit?

Mary never drew special attention to herself during Christ's life in any way. She was humble and godly. I think it would offend her for people to pray to her or venerate her excessively at the cost of her Son.

If Mary is the Queen of Heaven, why doesn't she have a throne? Scripture refers numerous times to Christ's ascension and that He sits enthroned at the Father's right hand to intercede. So if Christ has a throne by the Father, where is Mary's throne?

“He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Rev. 3:21)

[Pyro7480]

Do you really believe that Mary, a godly woman, would accept any such title that draws attention to her and away from Her Son, her savior and the Savior of all whom the Father shall redeem thought His sacrifice, sanctification, intercession and merit?

That's the crux of the issue. Veneration of Mary DOES NOT draw attention away from Her Son. You honor the Son by honoring His Mother.

[cyborg]

I told you if you stayed up, you'd get an answer. I'm off to sleep. Good night!

[George W. Bush]

What's she doing "shaking" them at the storm clouds?

Figure of speech. She was just teasing me. I'm on pretty good terms with some of my Catholic neighbors. Good-natured ribbing but no one trying for ecumenical dialog. I think I softened them up when I went to their church to play hymns for Advent (recorded on Clavinova for worship). I did stress that I couldn't play the masses or Eucharist praises or any song with a title like "The Pope Says The Baptists Are All Going To Hell". And I still have a full set of Roman Catholic missals, something few Baptists have by their piano.

An outright ecumenical scandal. Much giggling ensued.

Did me some good as I had to repent a few tiny bits of harshness toward Rome and particularly not to be dismissive of the faith and devotion of many Catholics to Jesus, despite the opinions held by their hierarchy. BTW, I did consult the local Baptist clergy and deacons and they offered no objections. After all, we sing all the same Christmas songs. There's more to the story and it's rather humorous but too long to tell. I did play a non-Christmas song too. I think it's called Memoriam C, a song requested by the priest because he liked it for worship. I had no doctrinal objection to it.

[George W. Bush]

You honor the Son by honoring His Mother.

Not in my bible. It teaches us that all generations shall call her blessed and describes the events that cause us to consider her blessed. And no more.

Still, Marian veneration is not the heart of Baptist objections to Roman doctrine. If the gospel message is impeded, this is not the crux from a Baptist or Protestant viewpoint.

But then, the veneration leads to the prayers for intercession and the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. And we do object to those, not finding them in the canon of scripture known to the entire ancient church.

[dangus]

>> Then why is she named by Rome's bishops (Pius XI in 1935 and JP II in 1985) as the Co-Redemptrix? <<

This is as if I said I never fly on Southwest, and you ask "then, why did I see you driving a Buick?" What is it that you think co-redemptrix means? Oh, and by the way, JP2 REJECTED the title of co-redemptrix in 1992, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

>> So, is Mary the Queen Of Heaven or not? <<

Yes. How does that suggest she is divine? Go read Revelations 12 for an explanation of that title. (Yes, Rev. 12 represents the New Israel, but the figure of Mary is used to make that representation.)

>> Looks to me like a late second-century superstition that gained standing as Rome's state religion descended to its typical accommodations to extent pagan godess religions, a familiar strategy from the hierarchy's other doctrinal compromises with false religions for the sake of recruitment and temporal influence. <<

Well, there certainly was no evidence:
1. That it was ever regarded as a superstition,
2. That it gained standing, as opposed to having started off unquestioned,
3. that its emergence had anything to do with accommodations to extent pagan goddess religions.

[dangus]

>> BTW, my Catholic neighbor mentioned to me on the phone that she got more rain than me a few nights ago by going out and shaking her rosary beads at the storm clouds <<

Oh, OK. You neglected to mention that your next-door neighbor was a STARK-RAVING MAD LUNATIC!

[dangus]

>> I am not sure what you mean by the "jury is out" if its dogma isn't that what the official teaching of your church is? <<

I think what Pyro means is that the jury is still out as to whether Mary died, and was immediately assumed into Heaven before her body experienced a trace of corruption (i.e., rotting), or whether she was assumed into heaven while she was still living. I always presumed it meant while she was still living, but I can't think of anything contradictory to the notion that she died and was immediately assumed, other than some speculation that she was one of whom Jesus said would not taste death before the establishment of the Kingdom on Earth... but I also understand that quote is often held to refer to the establishment of the Church.

>> Mary did not create GOD. <<

No one has ever understood it to mean that.

>> By your definition of "Co-Redemptrix" the soldiers who forced JESUS to carry the cross were Co-Redeemers because they assisted in the redemptive act. <<

No, that's an unnecessary detail that could have played out in many other ways without affecting the nature of his time on Earth; I would say that by that definition, however, anyone who assisted in someone's conversion is a personal co-redeptor to the convert, and I have no reason to believe the church would object to that being stated, either.

>> However, I don't believe either should be elevated to a status that is equal to our mutual LORD and SAVIOUR. <<

Again, that is not what any Catholic understands that to mean.

[dangus]

>> I leave the driving to Jesus. 8~) <<

Well, let's just say that I don't even venerate Greyhound!

[George W. Bush]

Actually, she is pretty witty.

Apparently, you're depending on the merit of some beads for your eternal salvation or you wouldn't be so riled about a harmless joke between neighbors.

[dangus]

>> Implicit in the term "Mother of GOD" is that Mary was the creator of GOD <<

1. No mother creates her child. All children are created by God.
2. The term "Mother of God" occurs no-where in the mass, except when perhaps a song about Mary is included because its a feast day, or maybe the Hail Mary is added because of a coincident piety. On the other hand, the mass includes several references that would positively exclude the notion that anyone or anything created God.

[dangus]

... What I mean by point 2 is not that "mother of God" is somehow not considered fit to be in the mass, just that any church-going Catholic could not possibly be confused by that.

[dangus]

>> But most importantly, it robs Jesus of His fully human nature. <<

Quite to the contrary; it forces the issue that Jesus was God, and nonetheless that Jesus also had a mother.

Various heretical groups claimed that Jesus was either fully God, or fully human, or that he was human, then became God, and was no longer human, heresies which were incompatible with the notion that Mary was the mother of God.