More Weird Liturgy? "Our Lady" Rite Author Inspired By Labyrinth Walk

The Christian Challenge ^ | 7/28/2006 | Lee Penn

[dangus]

I think we both safely agree that the term "Mother Jesus" is an apostatic abomination! I meant to point out that Catholics have never fallen in to such error.

[dangus]

It's not that either is too simple or too complicated.

the former formulation would be akin to saying, "Put your foot on the break. Stick the key into the ignition, and turn. Shift the car into reverse. Gently ease up on the brake and, if the car isn't moving backward, gently put your foot on the gas.

Dr. Eck's formulation would be akin to saying, "DRIVE!"

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Your statement is vastly oversimplified.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." -- John 1:10-14

Simple.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

it's a fact that Mary assisted with the redemptive act

Now see, right there you cross over the line. Christ's redemption of His flock is singularly His work alone.

[wmfights]

"The "jury" is out on that one. The dogma of the Assumption teaches that after her last minute on earth, Mary's was assumed, body and soul into heaven, as she was the Ark of the New Covenant."

I am not sure what you mean by the "jury is out" if its dogma isn't that what the official teaching of your church is?
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"If Jesus is King (and He is), then His Mother is queen mother. "Co-Redemptrix" is a Latin term, that means "a woman who assisted with the redemptive act" (of Jesus)."

JESUS preexisted the world he was "begotten not made" I believe a more straight forward and not misleading statement would be "Mother of JESUS". Mary did not create GOD.

By your definition of "Co-Redemptrix" the soldiers who forced JESUS to carry the cross were Co-Redeemers because they assisted in the redemptive act.

I come from the perspective that anything that takes away from our focus on JESUS is suspect. I have no doubt that Mary was truly a good righteous woman just as I think Joseph was a good righteous man. However, I don't believe either should be elevated to a status that is equal to our mutual LORD and SAVIOUR.
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"The only implication is that she is the closest to Jesus."

Why do you think she is closer to JESUS than any other believer. What about John the disciple JESUS loved? What about the first martyr Stephen whose FAITH was so great he died in our Savior's name?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Good point. I think the worship of the female goes back to the Egyptians.

Wrong then. Wrong now.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I leave the driving to Jesus. 8~)

[wmfights]

"the former formulation would be akin to saying, "Put your foot on the break. Stick the key into the ignition, and turn. Shift the car into reverse. Gently ease up on the brake and, if the car isn't moving backward, gently put your foot on the gas."
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Everything in your analogy points to you being in control every step along the way. Salvation is not achieved by man, but by GOD. Your in the back seat going wherever GOD wants to take you.

[Pyro7480]

JESUS preexisted the world he was "begotten not made" I believe a more straight forward and not misleading statement would be "Mother of JESUS". Mary did not create GOD.

Yes, He pre-existed the world. Yet, once He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary, He became fully human AND fully divine. "Mother of Jesus" is accurate, but what is Jesus? He is true man, but also true God. The title "Mother of God" comes from a time in Christian history when there was a debate over whether Jesus was two distinct persons in one body, or whether He was one person with two natures. The Council of Ephesus decided upon the latter when it gave Mary the title "Theotokos" (literally "God bearer,") which was translated as "Mother of God"). When a woman bears an unborn child naturally, that woman becomes a mother.

[wmfights]

Wow, you beat me to the same point.

John 3:16 "For GOD so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

It's not complicated, believe have faith be saved.

GOD loves you.

[wmfights]

"The title "Mother of God" comes from a time in Christian history when there was a debate over whether Jesus was two distinct persons in one body, or whether He was one person with two natures."
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Implicit in the term "Mother of GOD" is that Mary was the creator of GOD and as such has special status.

[FJ290]

Good point. I think the worship of the female goes back to the Egyptians. Wrong then. Wrong now.

Certainly the Egyptians had many gods and goddesses. One of the periods of time that female worship got out of hand is in old Europe with the Wiccans and that has been revived today.

Has anyone here ever tried to evangelize to Wiccans? Whoa! That's an ordeal. I was trying to evangelize to some on another website several years ago and they sent about 50 females after me on that group. I've never seen such filthy language and hatred for Christianity. When they found out I was a man, it got even more heated. I had to shake the dust and get out of there.

[wmfights]

"The title "Mother of God" comes from a time in Christian history when there was a debate over whether Jesus was two distinct persons in one body, or whether He was one person with two natures."
_______________________________

Implicit in the term "Mother of GOD" is that Mary was the creator of GOD and as such has special status.

[FJ290]

Implicit in the term "Mother of GOD" is that Mary was the creator of GOD and as such has special status.

Well... she is blessed among women and she did bear the Son of God, so therefore I think she has pretty special status.

Catholics do not believe that Mary is the creator of God. You believe Jesus is God don't you manifested in the flesh? She was His mother wasn't she? Therefore she is the Mother of God.

[Pyro7480]

Implicit in the term "Mother of GOD" is that Mary was the creator of GOD and as such has special status.

Not at all. That would also imply that Mary is HIGHER than God, and obviously she is not. She is a creature, but one immaculate.

[blue-duncan]

Did you people catch this? "Ms. Fox's first experience with walking the labyrinth at the 1996 Sacred Circles". The whole thing came from a loon walking in circles. That reminds me of that movie about the Aboriginal tribe that worshiped a Coke bottle that fell out of a plane flying over the village.

[George W. Bush]

Never has a Catholic prayer asked the Blessed Mother for forgiveness. NEVER! We ask the Blessed Mother to pray for us that we be kept from sin.

Then why is she named by Rome's bishops (Pius XI in 1935 and JP II in 1985) as the Co-Redemptrix? Though she's never been infallibly declared in this rank, the angry reaction from Catholics and Orthodox and Anglicans, not to mention Protestants and others, was not positive. So we see a soft-pedaling of this silly notion which does not even merit the dignity of being called a doctrine. JP II tested the waters and the reaction was not warm, even among Catholics.

No Catholic has EVER said that Mary is divine, god, or all-powerful.

So, is Mary the Queen Of Heaven or not?

As far as Marian prayers, Wikipedia offers:

The earliest known Marian prayer is Deipara, Dei Genetrix. Mother of God, dating from late 2nd century. It was, discovered in Egypt in 1917 and was written in the languages of the Copts and Greeks (Theotokos, Mother of God). This title was authorized at the Council of Ephesus in 431 commemorating the Virgin's role in the incarnation of Jesus as the Word of God, and her place in the History of Salvation.

Looks to me like a late second-century superstition that gained standing as Rome's state religion descended to its typical accommodations to extent pagan godess religions, a familiar strategy from the hierarchy's other doctrinal compromises with false religions for the sake of recruitment and temporal influence.

BTW, my Catholic neighbor mentioned to me on the phone that she got more rain than me a few nights ago by going out and shaking her rosary beads at the storm clouds. I retorted that this was unfair to us humble Baptists and we might retaliate by buying ourselves some groovy "love beads" so we wouldn't be defenseless when Rome's followers try to hog the rain.

[George W. Bush]

With the prayer "Mother, you loved the world so much that you sent your only Son to be our Savior. Incarnate by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary," the consecration prayer claims that Jesus has two mommies - and no Father.

Even us rednecks had noticed this. Considerable sarcasm was heard after the local priestess (minister) prayed to her goddess (the Mother) down at the local Congregational establishment. The ready comparison to Heather Has Two Mommies received some attention.

Everyone was appalled, including the unchurched.

[Pyro7480]

Looks to me like a late second-century superstition that gained standing as Rome's state religion descended to its typical accommodations to extent pagan godess religions, a familiar strategy from the hierarchy's other doctrinal compromises with false religions for the sake of recruitment and temporal influence.

What next, the Catholic Church hid the truth about Jesus and Mary Magdalen, and Opus Dei sees to it that the truth stays a secret?

[Pyro7480]

So, is Mary the Queen Of Heaven or not?

Queen of Heaven is a title, not something that states that she is a goddess. The Church, both in the East and the West, has taught that she is a creature - a creature that is higher than the angels - but a creature none the less.