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St. John Fisher: "I am come here to die for Christ's Catholic Church"
The Angelus ^ | March 1978 | Malcolm Brennan

Posted on 06/22/2006 7:36:40 AM PDT by Pyro7480

English Martyrs

"I am come here to die for Christ's Catholic Church"

Malcolm Brennan

When Henry VIII began to dally with the idea of putting away his Queen Catherine and replacing her with Anne Boleyn, it was only natural that one of his earliest bids for support should go to John Fisher, one of the most eminent men of the day. He had been a model bishop of the Diocese of Rochester for twenty-three years, in an age when the lives of many bishops were less than edifying. For the same length of time he had been Chancellor of the University of Cambridge and had guided it out of the doldrums into new learning of the Renaissance. Erasmus, whom he had brought to Cambridge to introduce the study of Greek, said of him, "He is the one man of this tune who is incomparable for uprightness of life, for learning and greatness of soul."

Fisher had years ago been a favorite of Henry's father and grandmother. He had often been a member of the king's Privy Council, was a natural leader in the House of Lords and among the clergy, and was universally recognized for piety and learning. If at the outset the king had been able to engage the support of this venerable prelate, laden with years and honors, he could reasonably expect to avoid many difficulties.

To accomplish this treachery against his wife of 18 years, Henry affected religious scruples about the validity of his marriage. In particular, Henry's piety was troubled by the possibility that Pope Julius II had erred in granting the dispensation which made possible his marriage with Catherine. If the pope had exceeded his powers, then Henry and Catherine had been living in sin—and no wonder God had cursed them with only female issue! Henry had Wolsey, the ambitious and worldly Cardinal, put the matter to Fisher in June, 1527, after swearing the saint to secrecy. In September came his opinion: Henry and Catherine were true man and wife, their daughters were legitimate, and what God had joined no man should sunder. When Henry later objected that Fisher could not be so positive on a matter which was very obscure, Fisher replied that it was obscure only to those who had not looked into it but was quite plain to those who had studied it.

If Henry's devious purposes had not been apparent to John Fisher from the beginning, the king's ruthless determination to have his way soon became apparent to all. In the proceedings against the Queen, Fisher had been appointed one of her counsellors, yet he found it difficult to get to see her. Henry attacked from other directions. He apparently encouraged the House of Commons to raise complaints about the clergy (it was easy in those days to recite valid complaints) and to demand impossible reforms. When Bishop Fisher, spokesman for the hierarchy, rejected the reforms, Henry attacked him for being whimsical and arbitrary.

Another tactic Henry used concerned a religious visionary known as the Maid of Kent. This woman, who was probably demented, denounced the king's divorce proceedings to all and sundry, including the king himself on one occasion. When Henry learned that Fisher had once heard her denunciations, he demanded to know why the bishop had failed to report these treasonable utterances. Was he in some disloyal league with the woman?

These affronts were doubtless irksome but they in no way clouded St. John Fisher's clear perception of the issues. He had had many years of experience in which God had prepared him to confront this crucial phase of the Reformation. He was a model spiritual shepherd in his diocese, despite the demands of the university and the government—visiting his parishes, examining his clergy, inspecting religious institutions, promoting the sacraments, and preaching, a practice which he was always anxious to foster. At the end of a weary day of official duties in an out-of-the-way part of his diocese, the saintly bishop would search out the hovels of the poor, bringing the sacraments to the infirm and the healing words of the Gospel to all. And he was a man of prayer. When his goods were confiscated near the end of his life, the searchers were especially anxious to open a certain chest which Fisher had never allowed anyone to see the contents of. In it to their chagrin they found a scourge and, badly worn and crudely patched, a hair shirt.

As part of his episcopal duties Fisher had also acquired a particularly solid grasp of the new heretical ideas. He had watched the quaint old Lollard ideas dissolve into the more coherent and more pernicious Lutheran ones. To the first hand experience of these things he added the careful reflection entailed in writing half a dozen books refuting the Lutheran ideas—books which, incidentally, established his reputation for learning and wisdom throughout Europe.

A character so formed and a faith so strong was not to be deflected by Henry's intimidating ploys. Nor did the king use indirection for long. He had his new Archbishop of Canterbury grant his divorce in spite of Rome. He insisted that a convocation of England's hierarchy should confer on him the title "Protector and Supreme Head of the English Church and Clergy."

Fisher led the opposition to this, almost alone. When in his sickbed Fisher heard that nearly all the prelates had signed an oath affirming Henry's supremacy and repudiating the pope's authority, he said, "The fort is betrayed," thus laying the blame more on perfidious ecclesiastics than on the willful king. The bishops and clergy who betrayed the Church at this point—about 95%—did so sheepishly and reluctantly as men violating their consciences. Only later in the century, under Elizabeth, did there develop clerics who were zealous and self-confident protestantizers, the puritans. When someone asked Fisher why he made such a commotion about the king's bed partners, he replied that Saint John the Baptist had not disdained marriage as a cause worth giving his head for.

In April, 1534, St. John Fisher, along with St. Thomas More, were summoned to take the oath and, both refusing, were confined to London Tower. While More and Fisher were of one mind and faith, their conduct was different because of their different states in life. More, a lay lawyer and politician, could refuse to speak about a subject on everyone's lips, and his silence spoke volumes. Fisher on the other hand had a duty actively to resist the annulment of ecclesiastical authority, an especially binding duty since most ecclesiastics had refused it.

The clever chicanery which finally proved Fisher to be a traitor—why do they even bother with such travesties?—was this: In May, 1535, Richard Rich came to Fisher in the Tower with a tale that the king's tender conscience was deeply troubled about whether it was sinful for him to claim to be the supreme head of the church. He was, said Rich, a troubled Christian seeking spiritual counsel of his father in God, and Fisher's advice would reach no ears but the king's. Although a recent law had made it treasonable to say so, Fisher declared that Henry could not be supreme head. Well, naturally, a few days later Fisher's advice was paraded out in public court as evidence of a malicious defiance of royal prerogative, a treason for which the court ordered him hanged, drawn and quartered.

The king in his mercy remitted the sentence to beheading. Accordingly, on June 22, 1535, Saint John Fisher was led under powerful armed guard from the Tower to nearby Tower Hill. He was seventy-one years old, marvelously emaciated, hardly able to walk. An early biographer reports that upon the scaffold he spoke: I am come here to die for Christ's Catholic Church. And I thank God…”

"These words, or words to like effect, he then spoke with a cheerful countenance and with such a stout and constant courage as one no wit afraid but glad to suffer death. And these words spoke he so distinctly and perceivably and also with such a strong and loud voice that it made all the people astonished, and noted it in a manner as a miracle to hear so plain, strong and loud a voice come out of so old, weak and sickly a carcass.

"[When his sermon and prayers were done] he laid him down on his belly, flat on the floor of the scaffold, and laid his lean neck upon a little block....And then came quickly the executioner with a sharp and heavy ax cut asunder his neck, and so severed the head from the body, his holy soul departing to the bliss of heaven.

"Then the executioner took away his bishop's clothes and his shirt and left his headless body lying there naked upon the scaffold almost all day after. Yet one at last for pity and for humanity cast a little straw upon the dead man's privities."

His body was buried, finally, without ceremony, coffin or shroud, in the bare earth, but it soon had to be removed because of the crowds which came to venerate him.

The head was parboiled and mounted on a pole on London Bridge. There it remained for two weeks "very fresh and lively " until it was thrown into the river and its place taken by the head of St. Thomas More.

St. John Fisher was beatified on 9 December 1886 and canonized on 19 April 1935.

Sancte Johannes, ora pro nobis.


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion; History; Religion & Politics; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: bishop; catholic; england; johnfisher; rochester; saint; thomasmore; uk
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To: Rutles4Ever

Don't you think they are directly related? Do they have anything to do with an individuals religious belief?


61 posted on 06/22/2006 11:47:48 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: mockingbyrd

How would it be betrayal, if the paper was signed, and you swore allegiance...but did not believe it yourself? Wouldn't God know what was in your heart?


62 posted on 06/22/2006 11:49:45 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: mockingbyrd

I have never said that I see the point in faith.


63 posted on 06/22/2006 11:50:35 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: stuartcr

My beliefs are my property, too, since they are proper to me. If someone asks me to give them up, shouldn't I fight for what's mine? If you have a belief, but can't act upon it, you're not free. Which is why people die for their beliefs.


64 posted on 06/22/2006 12:17:42 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: stuartcr
Do you really think God wants us to die, for a belief?

Jesus told us this would happen to us because of our beliefs in Him and that whoever would persevere to the end would be saved.

Why die for something you believe is the truth, when the guy next to you can say, no, that's not the truth, and you can't prove it is....

Jesus died for the truth. He proved He was the Truth through His death.

That is not to advocate we are on the same level, but that death is not always meaningless.

Would you say that a soldier fighting in defense of his country dies a meaningless death? I dare to venture that since you are on FR you would not have that mind set. Why is it any different when a Christian dies defending their beliefs?

65 posted on 06/22/2006 12:20:22 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: Rutles4Ever

Religious beliefs are not tangible, so I don't see any reason to die for them....you can always have them, and still stay alive. I think God will know what is in your heart, no matter what you may say.


66 posted on 06/22/2006 12:25:23 PM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: FJ290

Our beliefs on Jesus differ. A soldier fighting in defense of his country, is not fighting for his religious beliefs.


67 posted on 06/22/2006 12:29:10 PM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: stuartcr
I've read comments in this thread concerning martyrdom, and more generally dying for something you believe. There are among us, people who discount the value of taking a stand to the point of death.

Wouldn't it be better to continue to live and influence peoples' lives rather than die? What good is dying?

There is an assumption in these arguments that someone could, when their life is placed in jeopardy due to a belief, publicly compromise on that point and yet still have their influence uncompromised.

That is not the case.

Ultimately this argument is one about value and duty. I, for example am as worthy of God's judgment as any man who ever lived; but that is not what determines my value. My value is determined by the price that was paid for me, through the sacrifice of Christ.

To deny Christ, would therefore not leave me alive to continue to influence people, but would in fact significantly reduce the value of what I said.

While I'm not Catholic (big 'c'), I do respect anyone who honors their conscience and serves God in a way that places higher value on eternal truth than on temporal convenience.

So, then you might ask, what is the difference between a martyr in Christianity and a martyr in Islam. And while the short easy answer is simply, 'right God, wrong god' that will seem too exclusionary for our society. So the answer is this: we are not asked as Christians to turn other people's cheeks. We are not asked to kill or injure others so that we may be justified. We do not climb into paradise on the bodies of infidels. But if we believe Christ died for us; if we further believe in His resurrection; if we believe in the promise of life eternal; we can, and indeed in some cases must persevere even to death.
68 posted on 06/22/2006 12:32:26 PM PDT by will of the people
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To: Rutles4Ever
If the shoe fits...

Do you try and come off as an ass intentionally?

Not really. God is.... whether we can prove it or not.

To an atheist, it's just an opinion, not a fact. In which case, according to the relativist, the atheist is equally correct.

God has his own reasons for denying all of us certainty with regard to His existence and nature. Those with faith ought not to feel superior.

Society seems better without homosexuality.

Since people have differing views, the opposite must be true as well.

Those wouldn't be in the majority so if it turns out their point of view is closer to the truth it wouldn't matter anyway.

You're unclear on the concept. The point is, it doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks if there's no universal truth.

I think the lack of clarity belongs to you. You have adopted the "either/or", position in the debate that so many dogmatists are fond of. The fact that we exist in the universe is evidence of some kind of universal truth. Its your strawman that assumes a position for others.

But I think we'd all die for certain principles.

But that's just dumb.

You should know.

69 posted on 06/22/2006 12:33:57 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: will of the people

We differ in our beliefs. How would denying your religion in order to stay alive...while in your heart you know it isn't true....reduce your ability to influence, I would think the opposite. It would show that whatever you say out loud to your oppresors, doesn't mean squat, what is important, is to stay alive and keep telling others to do the same, and eventually increase your numbers enough to overcome.

Again, this truth you speak of, is relative to the individuls, as not all people agree on what is the truth and it cannot be proven...it is a belief.

I think that persevering while alive, is much more effective.

Isn't martyrdom essentially suicide...taking the easy way out, instead of possibly spending the rest of your life holding to your beliefs, yet not being able to express them?


70 posted on 06/22/2006 12:42:44 PM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: stuartcr

IT would cause scandal to those who followed him as a bishop. It could lead them to disbelief, and as a father to his congregation he would have misled them. Christ said it would be better to die than to lead a child to sin, I believe this was both a literal and metaphorical statement.

In the end, it boils down to whether or not you believe truth is. What does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul?


71 posted on 06/22/2006 12:48:28 PM PDT by mockingbyrd
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To: stuartcr

But why believe if you deny it, at least publicly, the first moment the going gets hard?

Isn't that most of Christ's followers did when they heard Him preach as recorded in the sixth chapter of the Gospel of John? Did He change His message in order to stay of their good side? No, He repeated what He had said, and then asked who else was going to leave.


72 posted on 06/22/2006 12:51:10 PM PDT by mockingbyrd
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To: mockingbyrd

How could it lead to disbelief...all he would have to do, is talk to them.

How do you know your soul would be lost? Doesn't suicide mean you lose your soul?


73 posted on 06/22/2006 1:02:44 PM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: mockingbyrd

Why not? Why should a religious belief result in pain and death? Saying smething outloud doesn't change what's in your heart, does it?


74 posted on 06/22/2006 1:04:29 PM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Do you try and come off as an ass intentionally?

Can I use a lifeline for this?

God has his own reasons for denying all of us certainty with regard to His existence and nature. Those with faith ought not to feel superior.

Who hijacked this thread again with their smug superiority? Seems to me it was the group insisting that dying for one's faith was stupid. If you want to start a thread on the wonders of "I'm right, you're right", we won't intrude.

Those wouldn't be in the majority so if it turns out their point of view is closer to the truth it wouldn't matter anyway. Ask Robert Smith of Maryland whether the 1% of homosexuals (and their agenda) in the United States have impacted his life.

You have adopted the "either/or", position in the debate that so many dogmatists are fond of.

Dogma is absolute, not negotiable.

The fact that we exist in the universe is evidence of some kind of universal truth.

You can't prove that we exist.

75 posted on 06/22/2006 1:39:57 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: stuartcr
Religious beliefs are not tangible, so I don't see any reason to die for them....you can always have them, and still stay alive. I think God will know what is in your heart, no matter what you may say.

Correct. But our calling is to strive for excellence, not mediocrity. Someone who folds under duress isn't less acceptable to God, but someone who displays uncommon valor in the name of Christ is worthy of even greater glory in heaven. You can pass the course with a D-, but shouldn't we be striving for A's?

I don't think there can be understanding on why martyrdom (in the Christian sense) is desirable if you don't believe we're here for a higher purpose than collecting a Social Security check when we retire. No one is asking you to believe what we believe, but don't come here and demean our faith and expect everyone to "play nice".

76 posted on 06/22/2006 1:48:10 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: stuartcr
As I have said, defending/protecting loved one's or one's country, is not the same.

Why not, and who says so, and why should I believe him?

Why is it "okay" to die for a person, but no "okay" to die for an abstract idea, concept, or belief? Doesn't that violate your own relativistic creed? Maybe some people hold adherence to an idea or belief as a higher good than loyalty to a person or country. Prove to me that they shouldn't.

Thousands have seen UFOs also.

70,000 people at one time, in one place?

77 posted on 06/22/2006 1:57:28 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: stuartcr

Well for one thing, is this particular case he would never have had the opprotunity to speak to his people and explain his position. The Catholic church was persecuted by the most barbaric of means during Henry VIII and even worse during Elizabeth. He certainly knew this would be the result.

John Fisher refused to aknowledge a falsehood as true, he did the right thing. The fact that he lost his life because of it was not his choice, but the choice of those who chose to take it. He refused to lie and it cost him his life, this is not suicide since death was not his desired result.


78 posted on 06/22/2006 2:04:08 PM PDT by mockingbyrd
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To: stuartcr

To say something outloud which you do not believe is to lie. Lying is most clearly forbidden by God.

We have all heard the line in some romantic movie about "I would rather die than hurt you." Well, this is it in practice. Rather than violate one of the laws established by God, and insult truth in its very existence, this man chose to die.

He loved God more than he loved himself.


79 posted on 06/22/2006 2:07:48 PM PDT by mockingbyrd
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To: mockingbyrd
To say something outloud which you do not believe is to lie. Lying is most clearly forbidden by God.

All lying is not forbidden by God anymore than all killing is not forbidden by God. Many lives were spared during the holocaust as a result of lying.

80 posted on 06/22/2006 2:28:19 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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