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St. John Fisher: "I am come here to die for Christ's Catholic Church"
The Angelus ^ | March 1978 | Malcolm Brennan

Posted on 06/22/2006 7:36:40 AM PDT by Pyro7480

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To: stuartcr; Rutles4Ever
This is the scourge of relativism. Exhibit A, liberalism.

Sooner or later the debate always ends with the labels.

41 posted on 06/22/2006 11:06:30 AM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: stuartcr
So it's better to die, and never be able to express your beliefs, even in secret and maybe bring others to your way of thinking, than it is to bow to some stupid city, say praise allah, and continue on believing as you did? I do not understand martyrdom. God couldn't possibly want someone to die, just because they wouldn't say something, would He?

Why didn't we just surrender to the Nazis and promote democracy in secret when we wasted all those lives? If God doesn't want us to die for our faith, why should my government ask me to die for my nation?

42 posted on 06/22/2006 11:08:07 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: Rutles4Ever

Relativism, is reality. Isn't what you believe to be true, relative to your religious beliefs, as are others? Is what a Hindu believes to be true, the same as what a Jewish person believes to be true?


43 posted on 06/22/2006 11:09:21 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Rutles4Ever

As I said, I understand laying down one's life for a friend or loved one, to keep them from physical harm....this is not the same as laying down one's life for a belief.


44 posted on 06/22/2006 11:11:59 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: Invincibly Ignorant

I know, it's inevitable.....but amusing.


46 posted on 06/22/2006 11:12:49 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Rutles4Ever

War and invasion, results in physical harm....not the same as dying for a belief.


47 posted on 06/22/2006 11:14:44 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: stuartcr
this is not the same as laying down one's life for a belief.

So all those that died in the American Revolution were just chumps?

48 posted on 06/22/2006 11:16:51 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: stuartcr
I don't understand anyone's martyrdom.

What a sad, empty world you live in, where there's no real truth, nothing more compelling that opinion, and nothing worth dying for.

By the way, does it ever occur to you that your philosophical platitudes, like this one:

The difference between right and wrong, are completely dependent on the individuals involved.

... are just as unprovable and just as much a matter of personal opinion as you claim ours are ... if not more so? Go ahead, prove to me that "the difference between right and wrong (etc.)." You can't. I do know that men much smarter than either you or I (Thomas Aquinas and J. Budziszewski are two I can think of off the top of my head) have used a lot of ink arguing against your position.

Except that ours aren't just opinion.

You know, in Fatima, Portugal, in 1917, a miracle occurred in which the sun appeared to dance in the sky and then hurtle toward the earth. 70,000 people witnessed the miracle in person. It was seen as far away as the Azores. It was reported in secular newspapers in Portugal the next day.

That's not a matter of opinion, but of verifiable historical fact.

49 posted on 06/22/2006 11:17:14 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: stuartcr
War and invasion, results in physical harm....

Not necessarily. In the traditional rules of warfare, surrender mitigates destruction. If we surrendered to the Nazis, D-Day would never have occurred.

50 posted on 06/22/2006 11:19:19 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: stuartcr
Relativism, is reality

Relativism is chaos. If there is order in the universe, there has to be universal truth, not relative truth. If I stop believing you exist, do you stop existing?

51 posted on 06/22/2006 11:22:44 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: Rutles4Ever

I would think that establishing a new nation and and revolting against the king, are more physical, and a lot more than a religious belief.


53 posted on 06/22/2006 11:29:32 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Campion

You are correct, in that I do not believe that a religious belief, or an intangible idea, is worth dying over.

As I have said, defending/protecting loved one's or one's country, is not the same.

Of course it has occured to me, that is why I always say that none of this is provable....it's all a matter of belief.

Miracle...or phenomena? Thousands have seen UFOs also. Prove any of them.


54 posted on 06/22/2006 11:35:52 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Rutles4Ever

But we would have physically lost our land....not at all like a religious belief.


55 posted on 06/22/2006 11:37:03 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Liberalism and relativism

If the shoe fits... Not really. God is.... whether we can prove it or not.

To an atheist, it's just an opinion, not a fact. In which case, according to the relativist, the atheist is equally correct.

Society seems better without homosexuality.

Since people have differing views, the opposite must be true as well.

I know you can't. Be that as it may, did somebody (stuart) say a child in the womb is not a person? I must have missed it. Matter of fact, I read where he's ok with fighting for his family.

You're unclear on the concept. The point is, it doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks if there's no universal truth.

Speak for yourself (the p--sy part of it that is)

Actually, I was addressing you but forgot the ping.

I think we'd all die for certain principles.

But that's just dumb.

56 posted on 06/22/2006 11:38:09 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: stuartcr

So you've added "real estate" to "family" as things worth dying for?


57 posted on 06/22/2006 11:38:59 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: stuartcr

he died rather than compromise his beliefs. St. John Fisher was required to swear an oath of loyalty to Henry the VIII as head of the Catholic Church in England. He refused and Henry killed him.

I too would rather die than betray my faith, and in doing so, betray my Lord.


58 posted on 06/22/2006 11:41:03 AM PDT by mockingbyrd
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To: stuartcr

"So it's better to die, and never be able to express your beliefs, even in secret and maybe bring others to your way of thinking, than it is to bow to some stupid city, say praise allah, and continue on believing as you did?"

What's the point of faith, if you are unwilling to embrace it fully? I will die before I ever, even in appearance only, worship the false god allah the the man Muhammed. God required His only Son to lay down His life, there is a chance He will require the same of others.


59 posted on 06/22/2006 11:44:34 AM PDT by mockingbyrd
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To: Rutles4Ever

This is not the same as a religious belief that is relative to the individual.


60 posted on 06/22/2006 11:44:48 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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