Posted on 05/28/2006 5:31:47 AM PDT by NYer
"At a small Catholic church in Huntington Beach, the pressing moral question comes to this: Does kneeling at the wrong time during worship make you a sinner?"
Kneeling "is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin," Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea, told his flock in a recent church bulletin. The Diocese of Orange backs Tran's anti-kneeling edict.
Though told by the pastor and the archdiocese to stand during certain parts of the liturgy, a third of the congregation still gets on its knees every Sunday.
"Kneeling is an act of adoration," said Judith M. Clark, 68, one of at least 55 parishioners who have received letters from church leaders urging them to get off their knees or quit St. Mary's and the Diocese of Orange. "You almost automatically kneel because you're so used to it. Now the priest says we should stand, but we all just ignore him."
The debate is being played out in at least a dozen parishes nationwide.
Since at least the 7th century, Catholics have been kneeling after the Agnus Dei, the point during Mass when the priest holds up the chalice and consecrated bread and says, "Behold the lamb of God." But four years ago, the Vatican revised its instructions, allowing bishops to decide at some points in the Mass whether their flocks should get on their knees. "The faithful kneel … unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise," says Rome's book of instructions. Since then, some churches have been built without kneelers.
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
"Do you have a source for this news?"
We've a couple of Maronites in our parish who are married to Orthodox Lebanese guys. The parents of one of the girls are visiting from the old country and made this comment. Hardly an official source which is why I asked if the news was correct.
LOL! I think I already commented that I thought their brains were out to lunch!
Good point.
Whenever I see that picture with the Maronite priest with the long white beard and the bald head, I think he's a converted Shaolin monk. ;-)
It seems as if there are two issues here:
1. Obedience - this is non-negotiable, unless the priest and bishop are directing them to stand during the consecration. The only place where kneeling is absolutely required is from the beginning of the eucharistic prayer until the great "Amen". If the bishop/priest are saying, "you must stand after the 'Lamb of God' and continuing through Communion", then I'm afraid they are within their rights to do so. In which case, disobedience to the directive of the bishop would, indeed, be a grave sin.
2. The Hammer of Tran - Tran and the bishop's directive to expel the disobedient from the diocese may be within their right, but the level of hypocrisy is breathtaking when one considers their reticence to do anything about high-profile Orange County politicians and others who work to support the "right" to abortion.
Thus, my feeling on the matter is this:
1. The parishioners of this parish need to be obedient to the bishop. No ifs, ands, or buts. They are fostering disunity by their public disobedience. Whatever the lack of merit in this directive, the first duty - as long as the Bishop is within his rights - is to obey the bishop. The whole history of the Old Testament is couched in the consequences of disobedience - from the Garden of Eden to the Hebrews in the desert to Moses himself to David, etc. etc. etc.
2. Fr. Tran is wielding way too big a stick on this. Just my opinion, but he's not exhibiting pastoral care by throwing 80 year-old ladies into the street. And given the bishops disinterest in doing anything about excommunicating pro-choice politicians in his diocese, I wouldn't want to be in his shoes on Judgment Day if this is the hill he wants to battle for.
3. In the end, Christ knows these people want to kneel in reverence. But disobedience is greatly offensive to God. The way the Church is set up, the bishop has the final word on local issues unless he is flat-out violating canon law, in which case, he would not be in communion with the Church. In this case, it appears he is not violating canon law, so, parishioners can either go along with it, or go to a new parish/diocese. Not one of these parishioners will be held accountable for being obedient. If there's any accounting for, it's going to be the bishop and Fr. Tran. But since we're not in the business of passing judgment, the good people of that parish are going to have to entrust it to God and know that He knows their hearts.
The Patriarch convened a 2 year Synod that ended last year. Its goals:
-To discover the Maronite heritage and traditions to consolidate the Maronite identity.
-To perform the required renewal in the ecclesiastical life.
-To confirm the unity of the Maronite church in the patriarchal territory and in the countries of expansion.
I've scoured the official web site but find no specific mention of undoing the post VCII reforms. Perhaps you will have more luck. Here is the link .
Unlike the Orthodox, we've never held ourselves to be eternally bound by the disciplinary decrees of Councils, only by the doctrinal ones. And the question of whether or when one kneels is a matter of liturgical discipline, not dogma.
The custom (and the current law worldwide) in the Latin Rite for centuries has been to kneel at least for the consecration. American law requires kneeling throughout the anaphora. It's customary to return to the kneeling position after Communion.
" Unlike the Orthodox, we've never held ourselves to be eternally bound by the disciplinary decrees of Councils, only by the doctrinal ones. And the question of whether or when one kneels is a matter of liturgical discipline, not dogma."
Truth be told, C, the Greek Church takes essentially the same position, for which reason we get a good deal of flak from the Slavs. You know, there are other disciplinary canons which say we cannot go to a Jewish doctor or ride in a public conveyance with Jews, but nobody pays any attention to them either. As a general proposition, though, we are rather scrupulous about adhering to the disciplinary canons of ecumenical councils.
Before Vatican II, there did not exist legislated posture rubrics for the laity. The disciplinary directives for standing, sitting, and kneeling applied ONLY to the clergy attending Mass in choro. The posture of the laity was always a matter of custom which imitated the official choir rubrics and developed differently in different locales. Hence, there is the customary "American" rubrics for posture at the TLM, which differ in some places from the "Continental European" rubrics, mostly in regards to kneeling, because the European rubrics imitated to a greater degree the official Choir postures.
It is only after V2 that there has been a systematic attempt on the part of the church to legislate the posture of the laity at Mass.
It has often been said that we in the West are too legalistic. After Vatican II, this trait along with clericalism seems to have gotten worse.
Rules for posture of the laity at Mass were always a matter of custom and not law until 40 years ago. This is why if you attend different TLMs, there may be slight differences when the people stand, kneel, and sit.
Kolo,
Byzantine Catholic parishes with more young people in them tend to eschew kneeling from my experience more than those in the rust belt with more elderly folks.
You're dating yourself :-) Obviously part of 'my' generation. Did you also invent sins for Friday confession?
"Did you also invent sins for Friday confession?"
Invent sins? No need for that on my part. ;-) Actually, I think it was all the sinning that got me sent off to live in a monastery in the first place.
From EWTN's Q & A:
kneeling during Consecration Question from on 04-04-2006:
Is there a specified time during which the congregation should kneel at Mass? It was my custom to kneel from directly after the Sanctus to after the great Amen, and again, directly after the Agnus Dei until the time came to go to receive Holy Communion.
Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 05-02-2006:
Those are the times specified in the General Instruction as adapted for the United States, though it gives bishops the right to allow standing after the Agnus Dei. In such a case, you remain free to kneel, according to a Roman decision on this matter.
These abused parishioners should just withhold their weekly contributions until kneeling is reinstated.
With some priests and bishops, this is the only message they will understand.
Contributions are down significantly - there was just an announcement in last week's bulletin. Also, attendance is down as "the kneelers" are going to other parishes. Unfortunately, as was mentioned in a previous post, the feeling is that the long term goal is to close down this parish & sell the property, located a few blocks from the beach. Rumor has it Bishop Tod has plans to build a shrine to himself.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.