Posted on 05/28/2006 5:31:47 AM PDT by NYer
"At a small Catholic church in Huntington Beach, the pressing moral question comes to this: Does kneeling at the wrong time during worship make you a sinner?"
Kneeling "is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin," Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea, told his flock in a recent church bulletin. The Diocese of Orange backs Tran's anti-kneeling edict.
Though told by the pastor and the archdiocese to stand during certain parts of the liturgy, a third of the congregation still gets on its knees every Sunday.
"Kneeling is an act of adoration," said Judith M. Clark, 68, one of at least 55 parishioners who have received letters from church leaders urging them to get off their knees or quit St. Mary's and the Diocese of Orange. "You almost automatically kneel because you're so used to it. Now the priest says we should stand, but we all just ignore him."
The debate is being played out in at least a dozen parishes nationwide.
Since at least the 7th century, Catholics have been kneeling after the Agnus Dei, the point during Mass when the priest holds up the chalice and consecrated bread and says, "Behold the lamb of God." But four years ago, the Vatican revised its instructions, allowing bishops to decide at some points in the Mass whether their flocks should get on their knees. "The faithful kneel … unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise," says Rome's book of instructions. Since then, some churches have been built without kneelers.
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
Praying for these priests and bishops is important. But I am all for a medieval French-style through the bums out of the cathedral and city riding backwards on donkeys.
down, banshee, down....
A couple of years ago our new pastor 'jumped the gun' and announced that a change to standing was coming in a short time. The next week he announced that he had spoken too soon, but that if he had his preference, he'd prefer standing.
Since Catholics are woefully ignorant and like to keep the pastor happy, most started standing.
I tried it and didn't care for it. Since I knew what the GIRM said, I joined the group that kneeled, a group that continued to grow in numbers.
We had a hodge podge for over a year. I couldn't believe the pastor let it go on like that.
Maybe somebody finally said something to the diocese. The pastor announced that the bishop had issued a statement that the 'sign of unity' is kneeling in our diocese. Everybody's kneeling.
Yay!
Gee, big shock. Nobody's grumbling because they don't get to stand.
But. Just like the footdragging on the Missal translations, I'd bet the USCCB is going to try to force this on everyone.
I can't believe Madden actually used the 'spirit of Vatican II' phrase with a straight face. That's the one thats sets the alarm bell ringing.
Plus, it's so last century. Get hip, dude. We want our Latin back too.
LOL...
I'm afraid I can't take credit for that one...
"Et-Cum-Spiri-220" is a joke which is as old as the hills.
But I'm glad you liked it; I always did!
Regards,
A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.
But, yes, you are correct that the posture is of secondary importance to the 'intention and spiritual attitude'. They are putting the cart before the horse in many cases and would be better advised to improve their catechesis.
It was sort of humorous at RCIA when the question regarding genuflection before receiving Communion came up. The director would have liked to have said 'forbidden' but she didn't. She was searching for the right phrase and I suggested 'not preferred' and that was what she used.
I was pleasantly surprised to hear my pastor give a little talk before one of the First Communion Masses to all the non-Catholics in attendance about not being able to give them Communion. He was diplomatic yet forceful.
Know where we can find some donkeys?
>>>>>>I didn't like it, but I supposed that if a Bishop asked me to do something which was not a sin, then I must try my best to do it, if it was at all possible to do so and keep my peace of soul. I didn't understand his reasons, but his reasons are his own. So in Cleveland, I stand.
This is an accurate summary of the situation in Cleveland. Personally, I stand as an act of obedience (or penance, if I'm not feeling obedient) from the Agnus Dei until I go up for Communion, and I kneel in prayer after Communion. Several other people do the same. It has caused no problems at my parish, because the Diocese did make clear that people may continue to kneel if they feel the need to do so.
In that section, Cardinal Ratzinger said:
"Worship is one of those fundamental acts that affect the whole man. That is why bending the knee before the presence of the living God is something we cannot abandon." Page 191
And, more importantly, he also said:
"The inability to kneel is seen as the very essence of the diabolical." Page 193
Fr. Tran and Bp. Brown would do well to ponder these statements by our Holy Father, especially the second one. It seems to be quite clear and unambiguous!
Our church has no kneelers, and my legs will not allow me to kneel without them. I keep pitching forward onto my face
Pope Benedict XVI prays during his visit to the sanctuary of Kalwaria in Poland May 27, 2006. Pope Benedict paid an emotional visit to the birthplace of his predecessor John Paul on Saturday and told Poles he was praying that their favourite son would move swiftly towards Catholic sainthood. REUTERS/Michael Dalder
Ping, That is the Word of GOD, so I will kneel and the rest of the debate is blasphemy.
Ops4 God Bless America!
The rest of the quote follows:
"After all, it's just a cookie!" continued Fr. Tran. "You think those people actually believe it is the Body of Christ!"
Hey AC. Happy Memorial Day my friend.
"You could really throw a monkey wrench in and wear a rainbow sash while kneeling... ;-)"
LOL, You are going to start a psych ops movement. Can you picture groups of little old ladies with rainbow mantillas!
"The use of the term 'violation' is nearly tantamount to the outrageous statment by Father Martin Tran that Kneeling "is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin,"
But, NYer, it is most assuredly a violation of Canon XX of the 1st Ecumenical Council. How can it be anything else? Has the Latin Rite now discarded the canons of the Ecumenical Councils or only selected ones? If I recall correctly, every canon of the 1st Ecumenical Council was accepted by Rome.
By the way, nice picture of the consecration in a Maronite Church. I understand you will soon be doing away with that Vatican II facing the congregation stuff and going back to the ad orientam position as part of the "de-Romanizing" of the Maronite Church. Correct?
Happy Memorial Day to you too, Victoria. Hope you've had yourself a great weekend!
Do you have a source for this news?
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