Posted on 05/18/2006 7:43:02 PM PDT by Quix
PROPOSALS INVITED TOWARD A MORE CIVIL DISCOURSE RE RELIGIOUS FIGURES AT ODDS WITH VARIOUS SENSIBILITIES
The current thread regarding Pat Robertson is but the latest in a long tradition of certain flavors of evangelical Christian and particularly Pentecostal/Charismatic religious figures being thoroughly shredded by what--90% or more of the posts--usually in the harshest, most hostile, even demonizing wording possible.
It seems that when folks are perceived to be in such Pentecostal/charismatic categories, all bets are off, no holds barred--the most viscious attacks are the minimal Standard Operating Procedure. Instead of exhorting one another in Christian Love, the worst attitudes normally evidenced in the most ruthless of groups seems to flood out from many corners of the forum.
The forum rules about personal attacks are thrown to the wind--usually with great cheered-on fervor.
Personally, I don't mind the likes of Shrillery getting thoroughly castigated. They are the evil--even truly satanic opponents to everything this forum stands for. Ditto for the Jihadis. I think on that, all conservatives would readily agree or near agree.
However, when it comes to religious figures, there tends to be great haughty hostility to those not seen as kosher enough--and too often--for all those not members of one's own tidy little group.
We can ALL feel DUTY BOUND to "set folks Bibllically straight" regarding the horrible demonic errors of this or that figure. And, Pentecostals/charismatics usually make easy targets because we say things that are very uncommon in other corners of Christianity--though, interestingly, not at all uncommon in the New Testament Church.
But, from our perspective, we could say the same thing about John McArthur, for example. Or Dave Hunt.
Each homogenic group could come up with a list of popular religious figures from other groups that the first group considered evil and beyond the pale.
Then there's the great hostility between the RC's and the Protestants.
IF WE ARE REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT ACTING LIKE JESUS--THERE MUST BE A BETTER WAY to handle such perspectives. What are your proposals?
It's not up to the beleagured Religion Moderator. And Dear JimRob has been driven to distractions more than a few times and probably wished there was some way to send the whole religion forum into a black hole for good.
It seems to me that if we cannot police ourselves better on this score, that we may well not deserve to call ourselves CHRIST-LIKE = CHRISTIAN.
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I'm not suggesting that we ought not be allowed to state sincerely held perspectives which question another's stance as being Biblical enough or full of enough integrity or lacking in duplicity etc. We ought still be able to articulate what we perceive to be true and particularly Biblicly true vs UnBiblical.
But doing so so outrageously and in such devilish terms ought to stop and stop cold. PARTICULARLY ABOUT THINGS WITH REGARD TO WHICH THERE IS BIBLICAL ROOM TO DISAGREE, TO HAVE MORE THAN ONE PERSPECTIVE. I am not talking about the Virgin Birth, The Resurrection etc.
But we ought to have some mutually agreed upon minimal Christian standard for doing so. And we ought to police ourselves as well as lovingly each other.
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Personally, my proposal would be
1. that things such as calling another religious figure a demonized, satanic, etc individual needs to be limited to VERY OVERT DEMONSTRATIONS OF CLEARLY DEMONIC BEHAVIORS AND STATEMENTS. That is, demonized behaviors common in the NT. Statements clearly and overtly blasphemous in starkly brazen and obvious terms--not interpreted, rationalized terms on the part of the hearer.
2. that naysayers from outside the normal Christian community--those hostile to the whole idea of Christianity and all the more so to anything remotely supernaturally Christian--that those sorts of hostile naysayers be soundly, persistently and totally discouraged from getting away with their viscious, demeaning, virulant rants.
3. That once the more strident of us have stated our perspective regarding a particular religious figure--especially 2-3 times--we would do well to let it rest and avoid ranting on and on and on and on for dozens of strident redundant posts.
4. IF WE CAN PUT THINGS tenatively and graciously, OK--perhaps a longer discourse would be warranted or merited. Graciousness deserves something extra in the religion forum! But the haughty, self-righteous-from Mt Sinai sorts of castigating-of-all-not-our-idea-not-our-tidy-little-box--that needs to go and go quickly.
5. Those failing to follow through with such guidelines might voluntarily or even at Mod's requirement take themselves out of the next X or XX such threads. Or perhaps they would be prevented/ordered to avoid all further threads on such a topic.
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I'm happy to consider other reasonable alternatives. I'm just groping to try and find a workable, functional way which
1. Allows reasonable discourse and a mutually respectful sharing of all perspectives on a topic and even on a personage.
2. Demonstrates MUCH, MUCH, MUCH MORE of the unity of spirit and mutual charity which Christ called HIS FOLLOWERS to.
3. Prevents virtually every thread that involves Pentecostal/Charismatic figures and topics from becoming a bloody shredding fest ALWAYS at the expense of those of that perspective.
4. Brings glory to God instead of such a tarnished bad taste in everyone's mouths because of the awful behavior of God's snotty nosed kids.
Thanks tons.
xzins: Doh! Evidently, for some reason, I've been unconsciously blocking off the possibility of wiping out such a huge class of options in responding. I'm a fanatic for options.
But, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me! So, I will earnestly endeavor to do just that.
Though, am I correct, RM, in assuming that truly positive, affirming "you's," "your," "yours" are OK??? May seem like a silly obvious question but I'm so bruised and gunshy hereon, I must be super explicit about such things or my convoluted way of thinking ends up getting me in trouble.
Thanks tremendously for both your contributions to my growth. Oooops. Thanks tons for the dual contributions to my growh. LOL.
I'm underwhelmed.
I have no doubt that Pat would be tough in business dealings.
It's even conceivable he's made mistakes.
I do not believe he would allow a mistake of honor or integrity go uncorrected.
I am aware that perspectives can differ widely on a given action, motive, choice, statement. The one that matters most to him, no doubt, is God's perspective.
I suppose that sometimes, even the rabid left MSM might recognize that a given personal impression or perspective or evaluation or judgment is not necessarily the most accurate description or assessment operant.
And, if it's truly not worth the MSM's outrage, perhaps it's not really worth our concern either. Perhaps, from God's perspective, it was more on the order of Pat choosing chocolate over vanilla. But some onlookers may have had the conviction that the only holy thing was to choose vanilla ice cream.
Thankfully, through tons of enormously stressful and wrenching tests, The Lord has found that for me and my house, we will serve The Lord.
And, that also tends to mean that we will cheer on and affirm great models and examples like Pat who obviously are serving The Lord from a genuine heart attitude of service and devotion.
I can understand such a pique.
It's quite possible I have some left. Though when God strips one repeatedly to the bone marrow . . . for long months and years . . . . long lists of sensitive personal stuff just falls by the wayside and gets burned up in the refiner's fire.
I suppose most of my piques at this point tend to be in behalf of good folks wrongly maligned as well as 'innocents' like children etc. attacked by brutal evil doers. People can say a lot of horrible things about me and it doesn't bother me. I suppose it might bother me some for folks to suggest I don't Love God and people.
You condtradicted yourself here, and that makes the whole article hypocritcal.
You can disagree but still remain respectful, saying "they" are evil is judging. ANY "belief" that goes against God's word is evil, judging a belief and saying it is evil is one thing, saying a person is evil in one breath then stating we should be showing Christ like love is the height of hypocrisy. Standing firm in a belief is one thing, bashing a person is another. And this does not mean I'm defending Hillery, or jihads, or whatever. But you will NEVER win them to your beliefs by telling them they are evil, and satanic, and the whole point of discussing beliefs is to turn a person towards proper biblical truths.
Becky
Abundant Blessings upon you and your household, Theo.
That must have taken some digging. I'm usually not that impressed with great efforts to ferret out flaws in those who work hard at doing things right.
1. I suspect that there is no available record or proof whether Pat personally or the mine did or did not reimburse Operation Blessing, in money, diamonds or stock.
2. Assuming the worst, I am confident that if and when anyone around Pat became aware of even an appearance of wrong, that Pat corrected it. I assume there's no readily available record or proof of that pro or con.
3. Pat has dedicated his whole life and all his substance to the service of The Master. The way he has ran CBN and Operation Blessing make that abundantly clear. His character as displayed so routinely on TV AND IN FRONT OF WORKERS HE'S AROUND makes clear his Godly priorities. His donation of $200 million is not chicken feed. His not taking a salary, while numberically minor, is not something he had to do to even be prissy proper.
4. At his age, given his accomplishments, he has little else to do with any attraction or interest at all but to serve The Lord with all he is and all he has. I think he's doing marvelously at just that. More power to him and may God continue to abundantly bless him.
I don't know that ignorance about true facts and heart motives has ever been a hindrance to bashing Spirit-filled folks and their earnest deeds for The Lord. It sure didn't hinder the Pharisees of Jesus' dusty pathed days.
That's tooooo correct, no doubt. Still, some of us soldier on with our Hope IN THE LORD.
Thanks tons for your kind interest in my Dad. His bladder is still a mess. I talked to him a couple nights ago on his birthday and mentioned an article on FR about growing a new bladder from his own cells and he noted that he's not interested in any more big operations at 84 years old. Don't really blame him.
Besides, he was a Navy corpsman. He's a horrible patient. Reads up on stuff and gives the docs et al unholy hell about every little detail. Most of them hate to see him coming. Mayo Clinic in Phoenix has a doc or two who laugh and enjoy him and may even have learned a thing or two from him. But the local Doc cringes at every contact.
Anyway--supposedly his heart is right with God. His Pentecostal Holiness brother and I have done about all we can toward that. Dad had a good relationship with God in his teens. Has been very turned off against most churches and preachers for the usual reasons most of the rest of his life.
Prayers for him would certainly be appreciated.
How about an update on your family? Freepmail would be fine.
LOL.
I've been working most of my life to take off the sign on my butt saying KICK ME.
I think I'll let God take care of the bull's eye on my back! I usually make things worse trying to handle such things myself.
Thought I'd put you in the addy line.
ping.
I helped root and ground in The Lord a Muslim descendant of Mohammed in my apartment with free rent for over a year. God knows how loving I am toward others, including those on the street. More than 3,000 Chinese students know as well with typcal comments being that they didn't know anyone AS loving as I was enabled to be, by The Lord. That's something for a Chinese person in a culture focused on relationships so much. Praise God.
Evidently you consider Christ an outrageous hypocrite because He was so harsh with the pharisees and gentle with prostitutes.
I'll continue to follow him.
I have no delusions about my winning Shrillery to Jesus. I have had repeated impressions in my spirit that she has LIKELY crossed over the line of no return in her virulent hatred of God, His priorities and His Christian kids. I would not be at all surprised if she really does actively and overtly worship satan in various rituals.
Jihadi's I take on a case by case basis in terms of ministry and outreach. But I have no trouble being vigorously condemning of their stands and actions as a group in my public discourses. There's no contradiction in that. And, it's clear that some of them are so consumed by hatred as to be very demonized. Their choice. Not mine. I have no trouble calling a spade a spade in that regard.
I haven't checked out your FR home page. I don't know if you are a conservative, or not.
Thanks much for saying so about positive stuff. Helps relieve some of my still paranoid anxieites. LOL.
Casting all my cares on Him more and more . . .
This may shed light on the issue. I recently received this via an email list.
- - - - -
Word through:
Glywn McInnes: kgbatpeace@xtra.co.nz
Catharina Schouten: tesjoeva@zonnet.nl
THE KNOTTED ROPE.19-05-06
A solid, heavily timbered door stood before me;--it had a very ornate keyhole surround, but no sign of an exterior handle with which to open it.
The door opened inwardly.
Out of the keyhole protruded a short length of rope.
Various people had come and pulled the rope to remove it and insert the key so that the way through would be clear.
The other side of the door was presented, and it could be seen that the rope in the keyhole had a large knot in it,. It was clear that, through the many times it had been pulled from outside, it had become jammed in the hole.
The person/persons on the inside also had a key, but no way of un-jamming the knotted rope;- so their key could not be used.
I had felt that there could be more to it, but that was all that He gave me at the time !
The intriguing thing is that there was a 'key' available at each side of the door, but neither key could be used.
One side could not see how to get the rope out, and they never thought to push it back in, so the key would go in. And the 'inside' people could not get the knot out of the lock because it was jammed in too tightly.
Both sides had the answer, but they didn't know they had it. They were operating "by sight" !
It seemed to be a variation of Rev 3:20, and Song 5 :2-6
Explanation:
Though the Bride needs to be ONE.....and many people and ministries are facing troubles along their way and are in need that the door will get open .... (while the solution could be laying in the hand of their neigbour or other ministry but they are still working and thinking of there own) ....
The 'inside' people could not get the knot out of the lock because it was jammed in too tight.
That means no one of us can work by might or power only by My Spirit sais the Lord!
The Fathers says:
PUT YOUR TRUST ME, only in Me and I will make a way!
Galations: 3
3 How can you be so stupid? Do you think that by yourself you can complete what God's Spirit started in you?
Psalm 118 : 8
8 It is better to trust the Lord
for protection than to trust anyone else,
9 including strong leaders.
I Am The Way!
It is better to put your trust in Me than to put your trust in people
Not a spirit of unity but UNITY in and through MY Spirit!
www.tesjoeva.nl
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Sorry you misunderstood my inquiry, but I don't watch the 700 club I was thinking out loud why if he was a rip off artist why hadn't the media exploited this?
IMHO, he is not a rip off artist like a number of people. He is a good man who means well, cares about God and the future of America, but sometimes says things that people who think well of him wishes he hadn't.
But some of those pronouncements might even be true, if not politically correct.
Considering the amount of publicity he gets, the activities he does, if there was dirt of any real nature to be found, they would have exploited it long, long ago.
There are people who don't like his theology, or the way he does things or the 700 club, but that's another story. Considering how long he's been doing this, and what he has accomplished, very little tar has stuck to him indeed.
I agree if their was dirt the vacum media would be there to suck it up!
Yes there are things he says that make some of us want to craw under a rock. Yikes!
But I think he means well, and has spent his life doing good for many!
I understood that. And thought my supportiveness was clearer. Sorry it was not.
Please keep up the good work.
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