Posted on 04/11/2006 3:41:19 PM PDT by Rockitz
WHAT ARE YOU DOING MAY 19TH?
May 19th is the date the Da Vinci Code movie opens. A movie based on a book that wears its heresy and blasphemy as a badge of honor.
What can we as Christians do in response to the release of this movie? I'm going to offer you the usual choices -- and a new one.
Here are the usual suspects:
A) We can ignore the movie. ........
The problem with this option: The box office is a ballot box. The only people whose votes are counted are those who buy tickets. And the ballot box closes on the Sunday of opening weekend. If you stay home, you have lost your chance to make your vote heard. You have thrown your vote away, and from Hollywood's point of view, you don't count. By staying home, you do nothing to shape the decision-making process regarding what movies will make it to the big screen.
B) We can protest. ........
The problem with this option: It doesn't work. Any publicity is good publicity. Protests not only fuel the box office, they make all Christians look like idiots. And again, protests and boycotts do nothing to help shape the decisions being made right now about what movies Hollywood will make in the next few years. (Or they convince Hollywood to make *more* movies that will provoke Christians to protest, which will drive the box office up.)
C) We can discuss the movie. We can be rational and be ready with study guides and workshops and point-by-point refutations of the lies promulgated by the movie. ........
The problem with this option: No one's listening. They think they know what we're going to say already. We'll lose most of these discussions anyway, no matter how prepared we are, because the power of story always trumps the power of facts (why do you think Jesus taught in parables?!). And once again: rational discussion of history does nothing to affect Hollywood's choices regarding what movies to make.
But there's a fourth choice.
D) On May 19th, you should go to the movies.
Just go to another movie.
Save the date now. May 19th, or May 20th. No later than Sunday, May 21st -- that's the day the ballot box closes. You'll get a vote, the only vote Hollywood recognizes: The power of cold hard cash laid down on a box office window on opening weekend.
Use your vote. Don't throw it away. Vote for a movie other than The DaVinci Code. If enough people do it, the powers that be will notice. They won't have a choice.
The major studio movie scheduled for release against DVC is the DreamWorks animated feature Over the Hedge. The trailers look fun, and you can take your kids. And your friends. And their friends. In fact, let's all go see it.
Let's rock the box office in a way no one expects -- without protests, without boycotts, without arguments, without rancor. Let's show up at the box office ballot box and cast our votes. And buy some popcorn, too.
May 19th. Mark your calendars now: Over the Hedge's opening weekend. Buy a ticket.
And spread the word. Forward this e-mail to all the Christians in your address book. Post it on your blogs. Talk about it to your churches. And let's all go to the movies.
I would, but frankly, I am tired and this conversation, and you, are begining to bore me. So, goodnite.
Playing whack-a-mole with you for two days is boring too. But defending our faith is our responsibility.
I hope you will have the decency to find a non-boring way to do some honest research before you slander the church of a billion Christians again.
Slander? ROFLMSAO! Sure, I was lying.. all those things like pogroms, inquisitions, witch hunts, burning men at the stake for heresy, crusades, including the Childrens Crusade in which the church led hundreds of thousands of children to death and slavery, the Borgia pope.. an incestuous pervert who placed cardinal hats on his illegitimate sons, none of these things REALLY happened. There is little doubt the church would be commiting the same crimes and inquisitions today had they the power, because they did not stop due to any enlightenment on their part.. they stopped only because the power to do such things was taken from them by force. And all these crimes commited by people who were "defending the faith" like yourself. Put your matches away, you're not gonna get to burn anyone here.
For all your flaming, you aren't very good at reading. This is likely caused by going into a debate with a fixed point of view, and any verified, quantified and qualified dispute (with scriptural references) is not met with due consideration, but as a personal affront. This is not the mark of an intelligent man.
So, instead of getting mad and hurling insults; re-read and ponder. My dates are when the 'unchanging' Catholic church underwent a substancial 'change'. Although the New Testament was made available to the Catholic Church (and ONLY the Catholic Church) and would remain so for several centuries yet to come, the Catholic church did not adopt one of the central themes of the New Testament until 1003.
Several of the changes in the Catholic church have absolutely NOTHING to do with the will of God, but of the will of man. I found nothing about Nun's and their habit, Transmortification or Supererogation in any book of the New Testament. If anything is a man-made ordinance, used for the sole purpose to corrupt the will of God, ignore the sacrifice of Jesus; that would be Supererogation.
Doesn't the fact that the only person in existance (the Pope) has an infinite supply of 'grace' from deceased Saints, that he can sell - at will- or dispense as he 'sees fit' to any sinner, for any reason, bother you that it 'might' be used for the Pope's (ie. Church's) personal gain? You know, I've read quite a bit of the New Testament and Old Testament; and I can't find one reference that even hints that Christ could/would do this.
Luke 13:1-5 (paraphrased) Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish
Mark 7: 7-13 (paraphased) "But vainly do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
Well said. Bravo.
Do you wear a Kepha? Do you light Sabbath Candles? Traditions of men. Not in Torah or the writings.
Are we to believe you don't have a fixed point of view?
What exactly makes your assertions "verified, quantified, and qualified"? Dates appended at the end? Impressive!
My dates are when the 'unchanging' Catholic church underwent a substancial 'change'.
I must confess here your vocabulary surpasses mine, since I have no idea at all what "substancial" means. I would have thought it was a misspelling of "substantial", but surely even a moron would know that "The Red hat for the Cardinal" is not substantial. And why exactly is "red" capitalized? Is it a proper name? A reference to Divinity somehow? So much to ponder!
Although the New Testament was made available to the Catholic Church (and ONLY the Catholic Church)
Once again, we hear that four out of five Patriarchates, much like Idaho, never existed. My own Pastor claims to be from Idaho, but then again, he also claims the Council of Nicea happened, and since all those Patriarchates were entirely fictitious, guys like Athanasius and Arius were also fiction; therefore no Council.
Not only that, the Copts, Armenians, Nestorians, Waldensians, Hussites, Lollards: ALL FICTION.
and would remain so for several centuries yet to come, the Catholic church did not adopt one of the central themes of the New Testament until 1003.
The Apostle's Creed ends: "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting."
I'd thought the Apostle's Creed was adopted before 1003, but then if YOU say otherwise...
Doesn't the fact that the only person in existance (the Pope) has an infinite supply of 'grace' from deceased Saints, that he can sell - at will- or dispense as he 'sees fit' to any sinner, for any reason, bother you that it 'might' be used for the Pope's (ie. Church's) personal gain?
I'm not Catholic. I just happen to see some value in knowing what you're talking about.
You know, I've read quite a bit of the New Testament and Old Testament
Quite a bit? Impressive!
I wouldn't trust your authority for the history of what you had for breakfast.
You will swallow the worst anti-Catholicism you hear and spread it like gossip on your fellow Christians.
You refuse to do honest research and find the truth.
And you never realize you are hurting yourself as well.
May you see this someday and do what you must to make amends.
Secondly, if "that four out of five Patriarchates, much like Idaho, never existed.", it sure would be nice to have a source for this bombshell. Which 4? Silly question, where do you suppose the names for these 5 Patriarchates come from? Do you suppose *if* what you are saying is true, they may have originated from the Catholic Church, or is that dis-information by those Methodists?
I have no idea where you pulled this gem from
"Not only that, the Copts, Armenians, Nestorians, Waldensians, Hussites, Lollards: ALL FICTION."
Thirdly, "My Pastor said" is not a source. Sadly not even at the New York Times, anymore
As you do not know the meaning, or could not gather the meaning of the word 'substantial', I'll throw this in for your review
sub·stan·tial ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sb-stnshl) adj.
Of, relating to, or having substance; material.
True or real; not imaginary.
Solidly built; strong.
Ample; sustaining: a substantial breakfast.
Considerable in importance, value, degree, amount, or extent: won by a substantial margin.
Possessing wealth or property; well-to-do.
Again, much like a child; you make claims and allegations that appear from all of your souces, to be completely imaginary. I've been called a 'moron' for a typo; but you have gone to some effort to re-direct each and every point I have addressed.
Address the points, if you can. Attacking me just makes you look foolish. Be clear, up your meds; think and post clearly. Moving forward to a clearly posted observation. The Catholic Church OFFICIALLY adopted the 'forgiveness of transgressions in 1003'. The Apostle's Creed did not come into creation until the mid 700's. My source states
The oldest manuscript with the exact words we now have was written by an abbot named Pirminius. He lived during the time of Charlemagne. In 711, he rebuilt an abbey in Switzerland that had been destroyed in an invasion. Later he became the first abbot of a Benedictine monastery at Reichenau (in modern Germany).
I see you copied and pasted a bit on the subject of Supererogation, do you wish to defend that?
It is not by my word that those charges are leveled, it is the thousands of history books, and records even of the RCC itself that bears witness to their crimes. Your denial of those events are about as much in touch with reality as those who claim the Holocaust never happened. Anyone who is unable to face the reality of that seriously needs psychological help, and I hope you get it.
It is the thousands of history books…
I'd like you to cite just one of any repute that you have actually read.
Try reading A World Lit Only By Fire, by William Manchester, and he thoroughly sources his material, so you can feel free to debate the details with him.
Seek help, good luck, and farewell.
It speaks to the failure of medieval Europe, writes popular historian William Manchester, that "in the year 1500, after a thousand years of neglect, the roads built by the Romans were still the best on the continent." European powers were so absorbed in destroying each other and in suppressing peasant revolts and religious reform that they never quite got around to realizing the possibilities of contemporary innovations in public health, civil engineering, and other peaceful pursuits. Instead, they waged war in faraway lands, created and lost fortunes, and squandered millions of lives.Manchester is a good writer. Would be nice addition of a good read on medieval Europe, but far from an attempt at a scholarly history of the church. I doubt this is where you've been getting your "facts" on this thread; is it?For all the wastefulness of medieval societies, however, Manchester notes, the era created the foundation for the extraordinary creative explosion of the Renaissance.
Drawing on a cast of characters numbering in the hundreds, Manchester does a solid job of reconstructing the medieval world, although some scholars may disagree with his interpretations. (Amazon.com)
Oddly enough, I haven't seen them. What I have seen has been irrelevant, e.g., the Talmud.
Secondly, if "that four out of five Patriarchates, much like Idaho, never existed.", it sure would be nice to have a source for this bombshell.
Oh, but I do have a source. You.
You see, if the Catholics were the ONLY people who had the New Testament before the Reformation, it follows that the Eastern Patriarchates never existed. Now I've always heard that they did exist, but since I have no sources and you have lots of legitimate sources and everything you post is verified, quantified, and qualified, you must be right.
Since you have trouble figuring this out, for the record, you're being made fun of.
Which 4? Silly question, where do you suppose the names for these 5 Patriarchates come from? Do you suppose *if* what you are saying is true, they may have originated from the Catholic Church, or is that dis-information by those Methodists?
You have absolutely no idea what a Patriarchate might have to do with the discussion, do you? Which proves my point about you being an ignoramus.
I have no idea where you pulled this gem from "Not only that, the Copts, Armenians, Nestorians, Waldensians, Hussites, Lollards: ALL FICTION."
To explain it, I'd have to first explain how sarcasm works, then explain actual Church history. Since you still wouldn't get it, I won't bother.
Thirdly, "My Pastor said" is not a source.
Oh? So he's NOT from Idaho? Was he just confused his whole life or did he make it up for some reason?
As you do not know the meaning, or could not gather the meaning of the word 'substantial', I'll throw this in for your review
No, I know what "substantial" means. It's "substancial" I couldn't figure out. Something that applies to headwear, but also Purgatory.
Moving forward to a clearly posted observation. The Catholic Church OFFICIALLY adopted the 'forgiveness of transgressions in 1003'. The Apostle's Creed did not come into creation until the mid 700's.
The Nicene Creed, OFFICIALLY adopted in 325 (quite some time before 1003), also mentions the forgiveness of sins, never mind minor variations in the Apostle's Creed (which substantially predates Nicea).
See, that's the disadvantage of arguing a point without knowing anything: the other guy might might confuse the issue by bring up facts.
I see you copied and pasted a bit on the subject of Supererogation, do you wish to defend that?
Why don't you just assume I've defended it and proceed from there? It would make things more entertaining.
He covers the years from around 400 ad to 1000 ad, which is the period of time that the Church was at the height of it's power and glory. It is during these years that the doctrines of the RCC revealed their true nature. The nature of the church, while covered extensively, is not really the main focus of his work, which was the voyage of Magellan and the world he lived in, and he gives a quite detached and analytical portrait of simply what the world was like during that time. It was an attempt at a scholarly overview of the western world in that age, of which the Church was an integral part. Slightly dry reading, but very interesting and I highly recommend it.
You asked for one book, I gave you one, and even give you now HIS sources, so as I said, you can hash over the details with him if you choose. Personally, I am not going to waste further time with you. I say it is a waste of time because by challenging my assertions of the crimes by the RCC, and demanding my sources, you are either a)in denial and abjectly brainwashed to the point of being delusional, or b) aware that my accusations are true, and simply trying to make rhetorical points or trying to yank my chain. Given that you now say you have not denied my accusations, then I can only conclude that it be the latter. Whichever it may be, however, you have now made it onto the list of people with whom I consider discourse to be a waste of time.
As said above, He gets HIS facts from 75 footnoted sources (and I do think a number of them will probably qualify as "scholarly works on the history of the church"), including...
Life on a Medieval Barony by William Stearns Davis
Dictionary of National Biography : 3rd Supplement: 1912-1921 by H. W. C. Davis
The Age of Faith (The Story of Civilization, Volume 4) (Story of Civilization) by Will Durant
The Renaissance (The Story of Civilization. Vol. 5) (Story of Civilization) by Will Durant
Roman de la Rose by Lorris
City of God (Classics S.) by Saint, Bishop of Hippo Augustine
The People's Chronology: A Year-By-Year Record of Human Events from Prehistory to the Present by James Trager
The Divine Comedy of Dante by Dante Alighieri
A Treatise on the Astrolabe (Variorum Edition of the Works of Geoffrey Chaucer) by Geoffrey Chaucer
On the Revolutions : Nicholas Copernicus Complete Works by Nicholas Copernicus
Of the Imitation of Christ (Vintage Spiritual Classics) by Thomas Kempis
Ovid: The Art of Love by Ovid
The History of the Reign of Ferdinand and Isabella, the Catholic by William H. Prescott
The Emperor Charles V: The Growth and Destiny of a Man and of a World-empire by Karl Brandi
The European Discovery of America : The Southern Voyages, A.D. 1492-1616 by Samuel Eliot Morison
History of the Reign of Ferdinand and Isabella by William H. Prescott
Life Against Death: The Psychoanalytical Meaning of History by Norman O. Brown
A History of the Church: The World in Which the Church Was Founded (History of the Church (Sheed & Ward)) by Philip Hughes
English Social History: A Survey of Six Centuries by George M. Trevelyan
The Age of Reconnaissance by J. H. Parry
The Reformation in England: The King's Proceedings (Modern Revivals in History) by Philip Hughes
Life and Work in Medieval Europe (History of Civilization) by Prosper Boissonnade
Harvest of Medieval Theology by Heiko Oberman
Field Is Won by E. Reynolds
Emperor Charles V by Edward Armstrong
World of Michelangelo by Robert Coughlan
Calvin's Geneva by E. William Monter
Travel and Discovery in the Renaissance, 1420-1620 by Boies Penrose
Protestant Christianity Interpreted Through its Development by John Dillenberger
How the Reformation Happened by Hilaire Belloc
The death of a president, November 20-November 25, 1963 by William Raymond Manchester
Young Man Luther: A Study in Psychoanalysis and History (Austen Riggs Monograph, No 4) by Erik H. Erikson
Holy Roman Empire by James Bryce
Quests for Spices and New Worlds by Bertha Sanford Dodge
Social Life in Britain from the Conquest to the Reformation (Chivalry) by G. G. Coulton
Decline of the Medieval Church by Alexander Clarence Flick
South from the Spanish Main by Earl P. Hanson
A History of the Middle Ages, 284-1500 (Macmillan Student Editions) by Sidney Painter
Story of Magellan by Stefan Zweig
The Inquisition of the Middle Ages: Its Organization by Henry Charles Lea
GLORY AND THE DREAM by William Manchester
Life and Letters of Erasmus by James Anthony Froude
Praise of Folly: And, Letter to Martin Dorp, 1515 (Penguin Classics) by Desiderius Erasmus
They saw it happen: An anthology of eye-witnesses' accounts of events in British history, 1485-1688
Revolution in Time : Clocks and the Making of the Modern World, Revised and Enlarged Edition by David S. Landes
The Legacy of the Middle Ages (Legacy Series) by C. G. Crump
History of the Later Roman Empire: From the Death of Theodosius I to the Death of Justinian (Volume 1) by J. B. Bury
English Wayfaring Life in the Middle Ages by Jusserand
The Timetables of History : A Horizontal Linkage of People and Events by Bernard Grun
Chaucer and His England by G. G. Coulton
Three Copernican Treatises by Edward Rosen
Peace and World Order Studies : A Curriculum Guide, Fourth Edition by Barbara J. Wien
Protestant Christianity : Interpreted Through its Development by John Dillenberger
Heroes and Hero Worship by Thomas Carlyle
The Civilization of the Renaissance in Italy (Penguin Classics) by Jacob Burckhardt
The March of Folly : From Troy to Vietnam by Barbara W. Tuchman
The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Volume 2 (Modern Library) by Edward Gibbon
Western Society and the Church in the Middle Ages (Hist of the Church) by R. W. Southern
Works of Martin Luther: With Introduction and Notes, the Philadelphia Edition by Martin Luther
Prince Henry the Navigator by Charles R. Beazley
Men and Ideas: History, the Middle Ages, the Renaissance by Johan Huizinga
Catherine of Aragon by G. Mattingly
Education of a Christian Prince by Desiderius Erasmus
Admiral of the Ocean Sea : A Life of Christopher Columbus by Samuel Eliot Morison
Inquisition and Liberty by G. G. Coulton
Crises in the History of the Papacy by Joseph McCabe
The control of late ancient and medieval population by Josiah Cox Russell
The Coming of the Book: The Impact of Printing 1450-1800 (Verso Classics, 10) by Lucien Febvre
Literacy and Social Development (Cambridge Studies in Oral and Literate Culture) by Graff
Waning of the Middle Ages by J Huizinga
The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism (Routledge Classics) (Routledge Classics) by Max Weber
A History of Medieval Europe: From Constantine to Saint Louis by R. H. C. Davis
History of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages by H. C. Lea
You have not impressed anyone with any knowledge, you are just arguing abstract points that you are apparently too lazy to look up for yourself.
Here's a little hint: What do each of these Patriarchal leaders have in common?
They are all members of the Catholic religon, in one form or another. As such, the withheld the word of God from the common man by keeping the writings in Hebrew and Latin - languages that were intentionally barred from the masses. This was done intentionally, for if the only way to salvation is through a corrupt church; the peasants will be forced to accept it. I wonder how many medival priests told the farmer "The only way you and your family will have a chance of going to heaven, is if I sleep with your son/daughter", and then fabricated a scriptual reference giving the priest the right to that request? It was not until Martin Luther translated the bible into German, that the Reformation took place and changes were forcibly made. Bluntly, there were 'paybacks' and although we do not know exactly how many lives were lost; I would bet that some farmers took advantage of the Reformation to settle some personal scores.
Other examples of the Church not using eclestical restraint and holding back are executions or imprisonment of scientists who dared make statements contrary to Church doctrine (Aristotle), witch-hunts, Spanish Inquisition, The Children's Crusade , Supererogation (ie this means selling someone else's 'Good' deeds to compensate for your 'bad/unconfessed' deeds.
Historically, the Catholic church tolerated this corruption, and it was forcibly ended by the end of a sword.
Today, we have a world-wide epidemic of Cardinals who knowingly and with cooperation of Priest/Pedophiles used their influence to threaten the victims and their families; and protect the priest. Often moving them from diocese to diocese to prey on fresh victims. This was tolerated for over a huge period of time, and the Church did not even acknowledge the problem existed, let alone take actions to expose this problem; until it was done forcibly through the media and the courts of law.
This has all been foretold
Acts 20:29-30 - Know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
1 Timothy 4:1-2: In the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrins of devils; speaking lies in hypocracy; having their conscious seared with a hot iron.
I'm patiently waiting for your SOURCE on defense of Superegration. Perhaps I should show you how it was used.
The King of Spain knows that wanton murder is wrong; but the Aztecs have all this gold. Now, going in and using wholesale kidnapping, torture, rape and murder is wrong. And the king knows that ordering this action is morally rehensible. He also knows that his men will not willingly go at it in the genocidal method he desires, for fear of the fate of their souls. Unless, Rome is willing to sell enough of God's good grace to make up for the actions. Well, Gold is welcome curreny in the Vatican; and all the Pope has to do is sign a piece of paper ... and the blood did flow. The Aztecs were basically wiped out, and huge treasures of Gold were sent to Europe and the Vatican.
By church decree; everyone who murdered, raped and ransacked the villages of the Mayans and Incas; was promised that no matter what they did, God had already forgiven them.
Can you find just one scriptural reference where Jesus taught this; or anything like this?
We are taught that Gods dislikes sin; and the Holy Ghost cannot abide sin. So, if a Church is corrupt; the Holy Ghost will flee. If the Church is led through relevation, from the Holy Ghost; but the Holy Ghost has fled due to the corruption - does this chruch not now fall from grace?
by challenging my assertions
I posted facts that proved them wrong. Which you then refused to read.
Here's your logical disconnect: You post your facts, on "legible to the masses" for one key example. Then you cite a book which even you don't claim supports your post.
He gets HIS facts…
But what about the ones you posted?
I am impressed you read a book on the middle ages. I really am.
Here's all I'm saying. If you make factual assertions and I give contradictory information, then read it and respond, give your information.
I'm not saying the church is perfect, far from it. However, there is a great deal of virulent attacks that get repeated without challenge.
I'm challenging you to back up your specific assertions with more than just broad-brush condemnation. And I'm requesting you to back up your attacks with scholarship.
Believe it or not, I will even agree with you on some of them.
I'm wondering: Is there anything good you could say about the Church? Is there anything you are grateful to it for?
And also, is there any church, or institution, for that matter that has not experienced corruption if it lasts long enough?
May I ask which church you are a member of? Do you believe it free from corruption?
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