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To: jobim
For 1500 years no Christian had a problem believing in this example of the great mercy of Our Lord.

Hmm. Anyone know when this doctrine first showed up, or was made official by the church? It isn't found in Scripture.

22 posted on 03/08/2006 8:21:33 PM PST by Irish Rose (Will work for chocolate.)
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To: Irish Rose
Hmm. Anyone know when this doctrine first showed up, or was made official by the church? It isn't found in Scripture

Just a guess, but it could be a reference to when Christ's spirit left His body and ministered to the captives.

27 posted on 03/08/2006 8:35:14 PM PST by GLDNGUN
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To: Irish Rose

The origin of the doctrine of Purgatory was established in 593 AD by Gregory the Great. It was proclaimed dogma by The Council of Florence in 1439.

It's a lie.


41 posted on 03/09/2006 4:05:59 AM PST by RoadTest ("- - a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." - Richard Henry Lee, 1786)
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To: Irish Rose

"Hmm. Anyone know when this doctrine first showed up, or was made official by the church? It isn't found in Scripture."

Like heck it isn't! (Heck is for people who don't believe in Gosh.)
The word purgatory is a Latin word, meaning cleansing. Like the Latin word "Trinity," the WORD doesn't exist in the bible, but the concept does.

In fact, at Worms, Martin Luther lost a debate wherein it was conclusively proven that the Books of Hebrews, the letters of Peter, Revelations, and Maccabees all refer to atonement. Luther responses by claiming that these books were not scriptural. Other Protestants movements couldn't break the Tradition of including Hebrews and Revelations; they were too well known. Maccabees, being a more obscure Old Testament book, was easier to cover up, especially since the Jews had rejected the book in AD 70 -- after Christ -- because it explicitly foretold the Resurrection.

The key thing is that Christ's atonement saves our souls from ETERNAL condemnation. That doesn't mean we don't have to live with the TEMPORAL suffering caused by our mistakes. If a man is promiscuously homosexual and catches AIDS, being saved saves his ETERNAL soul, but he still suffers the TEMPORAL consequence of the disease he has caught. If a teenage loses his leg pulling stunts on a railroad track, and is saved, it is his ETERNAL soul that is saved. He still deals with the TEMPORAL consequence of having only one leg. And no miracle worker around is going to make him grow another leg.

Likewise, when we sin, WE alienate OURSELVES from God. We know nothing impure can enter Heaven, and our shame holds us back, until we accept total forgiveness. Saints are those who are purified on this earth, and so for some time on earth experience a perfected will. Protestants insist that all who are "saved" are saints. Is that so? Can you command mountains to toss themselves into the sea? How many lepers have you healed? Are you totally without sin? Does your will confirm completely with God's? Even worse is the tendency for some brands of Protestants to establish that nothing they do can be a sin, because they still do it in spite of being saved.

So, let's see where the bible tells us of a place of suffering or incomplete beatific vision (complete spiritual intimacy with God):

Revelations depict saints and martyrs already in Heaven (such as 5:9-14). These are those who have already been made pure by the blood of the lamb (7:5-17). Those who are in Hades are resurrected only later, and they are judged according to their works (20:11-15). Are all the judged condemned? No! There exists a book of life (20:12), and only those who are not found in the book of life are condemned (20:15). THe "servants and saints" are rewarded, while the destroyers are destroyed (11:19). On that day, the Earth will be destroyed by fire. Paul writes that many will survive, but their works will be destroyed. They will survive, as one who passes through fire (1 Corinthians 3:13-15).

In 2 Maccabees, the Jews were promised that the faithful would not die in battle, but many who fought valiantly for the Lord did die. The comrades of the dead found that the dead had worn amulets, idolatry. They were so aggrieved for those they loved, that they atoned for the dead by offering up the loot from the war to the temple. "Thus he made atonement for the dead" (12:38-46). It was with this loot that the Temple was rededicated on December 25, a feast attended by Jesus (John 10:22). And when Jesus died, the Maccabees' altar and curtain were destroyed (Matthew 27:50-52).

There was no word for purgatory in the bible, simply because the Jews would not have comprehended such a word. They knew only of the grave (Sheol, translated to Hades for the Greeks). But was Hades necessarily a permanent place? Did only the eternally condemned suffer any time in Hades? Not at all! In fact, we are told that the gates of Hades will not withstand the church (Matthew 16:18). (This is unfortunately confusingly transalted as "prevail." How do gates "prevail?" The word means to "resist being thrown down.") The GATES to Hades, which enclose it, will be torn down by the church! It's a prison raid! It's right after Jesus tells Peter the church will raid the prison of Hades that Peter is given the KEYS to Heaven! (16:19) (There are other, very significant meanings to the symbolism.)

Also, the notion of a PRISON as a TEMPORAL dwelling in Hades occurs many times in the New Testament.


62 posted on 03/09/2006 7:56:49 AM PST by dangus
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To: Irish Rose

...but to answer your question more precisely, there are first-century tombstones bearing prayers and commitments to atonement for the dead, right under the still-living apostles' noses in Jerusalem and Antioch. If they had a problem with the practice, it's awfully strange that there is no biblical record of their opposition to it.

So the answer is that the doctrine was practiced in the early church in the time of the apostles exactly where the apostles preached.


63 posted on 03/09/2006 8:00:43 AM PST by dangus
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To: Irish Rose

Yes, references to Purgatory, a place of purification are in the Bible.


72 posted on 03/09/2006 8:18:45 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Irish Rose

I believe it became required dogma in the 1200s. But of course the claim was (and is) "we've always believed this!" Naturally the evidence says differently...definitely a medieval innovation.


224 posted on 03/09/2006 10:11:12 PM PST by AnalogReigns (For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:-Eph 2:8)
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To: Irish Rose

Most of these doctrines showed up (and were and are read-into previous Church father's writings) about the 12th Century.


329 posted on 08/21/2006 11:00:04 AM PDT by AnalogReigns
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