[Catholic] Tradition catching on with Baptists [Ecumenical Ash Wed. Service]

Birmingham News ^ | Wednesday, March 01, 2006 | Greg Garrison

[Full Court]

Tradition catching on with Baptists Protestants begin to take part in Ash Wednesday for its theological lessons Wednesday, March 01, 2006 GREG GARRISON News staff writer It used to be that Baptists had nothing to do with Ash Wednesday, a liturgical holiday they associated with Catholics. No more. "It's a good way of putting the congregation in the right mind-set to prepare for Easter," said the Rev. Christopher Hamlin, pastor of Tabernacle Baptist Church in Smithfield. An ecumenical service at 6:30 tonight at Our Lady Queen of the Universe Catholic Church will include participation by three Baptist churches - Baptist Church of the Covenant and Trinity Baptist, both on Southside, and Tabernacle. "For us to go to the Catholic church, that's something new as Baptists," said the Rev. Sarah Jackson Shelton, the Covenant pastor. "It unites us as the bigger church, and with a larger tradition. ... It's being part of a sacred story that belongs to all of us." Other Baptist churches observe the tradition on their own. Fellowship of the Valley, for example, will have a service at 7 tonight at the Lake Cyrus Clubhouse in Hoover. "It's an appreciation for the symbols of our faith, an opportunity to see, feel and touch those symbols," said the fellowship's pastor, the Rev. Michial Lewis. Lewis said the Reformation of the 1500s, when Martin Luther led a reaction against abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, resulted in rejection of traditions such as Lent by many Protestants. "We do emphasize that our relationship with Christ is through faith alone, and the reformers wanted to avoid the appearance that we gain acceptance with God through rituals or symbols," Lewis said. "Now, people can understand the difference. These symbols come alongside as holy reminders." Robert Hodgson, dean of the Nida Institute for Biblical Scholarship at the American Bible Society in New York City, said many evangelicals are beginning to see the biblical roots of Lent. "Jesus goes into the wilderness for 40 days and disciplines himself with fasting and prayer." The 40 days of Lent are preparation for Easter, when Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. Easter is April 16 this year for more than a billion Western Christians and April 23 for Eastern Orthodox. Baptists are taking an increased interest in the liturgical season for its theological lessons, Shelton said. "It's important for us to take the opportunity to confess our sin." During many Christian observances of Ash Wednesday, the minister rubs ashes on the foreheads of congregants and says, "You are dust and to dust you shall return," quoting a verse from Genesis. The wearing of ashes is prominent in the New Testament with John the Baptist, who called for repentance and wore sackcloth and ashes. "It's the outward, visible symbol of something that's happening internally," Shelton said. "We too will return to ashes," she said. "There's life beyond that, and hope beyond what we experience in this life." E-mail: ggarrison@bhamnews.com © 2006 The Birmingham News © 2006 al.com All Rights Reserved.

[Full Court]

Why is it that you do not consider Baptists to be Protestants?

Cardinal Hosius (Catholic, 1524), President of the Council of Trent:

"Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)

The "twelve hundred years" were the years preceding the Reformation in which Rome persecuted Baptists with the most cruel persecution thinkable.

Sir Isaac Newton:

"The Baptists are the only body of known Christians that have never symbolized with Rome."

Mosheim (Lutheran):

"Before the rise of Luther and Calvin, there lay secreted in almost all the countries of Europe persons who adhered tenaciously to the principles of modern Dutch Baptists."

Edinburg Cyclopedia (Presbyterian):

"It must have already occurred to our readers that the Baptists are the same sect of Christians that were formerly described as Ana-Baptists. Indeed this seems to have been their leading principle from the time of Tertullian to the present time." Tertullian was born just fifty years after the death of the Apostle John.

[hellinahandcart]

I didn't know non-catholics could get ashes at a Catholic church, or I'd have gone to one this morning. Is this normal?

I don't know what the deal is with the Episcopal church up the street from me (not that I would have gone there). Not only do they have a female rector, they don't even have a service today. Nothing. Zip. Ash Wednesday, and the place is locked up tighter than Al Gore's wallet.

There's a Coffee House on the 11th, though. They have a sign up for that.:D

[AnAmericanMother]

Hey, we have a breakaway formerly Episcopal church here right along I-75. I mean, it's right on top of the road.

We call it "Our Lady of the Interstate."

[Campion]

Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)

This quote is a fake.

The Baptists you know are a Protestant tradition with roots in England.

[AnAmericanMother]

The deal with the Episcopal church is that they have hardly any members left -- that's why it's locked up tight.

So far as I know (but I'm a pretty new Catholic) there is absolutely no reason why a non-Catholic couldn't receive the ashes on Ash Wednesday. It's not a Sacrament like the Eucharist or Confession (you have to be Catholic to participate in a Catholic Sacrament - it could be hazardous to your spiritual welfare if you take something you don't fully believe in, plus it's a sign of solidarity and assent, which you don't want to do if you're not on board.)

. . . found the answer. You don't have to be Catholic, but you DO have to be a properly baptized Christian (i.e. baptized with water in the name of the Trinity):

Who may receive ashes on Ash Wednesday? May baptized non-Catholics receive ashes, or is such only for Catholics?

The Code of Canon Law, canon 1170 prescribes:

Can. 1170 Blessings which are to be imparted first of all to Catholics, can also be given to catechumens and even to non-Catholics unless there is a prohibition of the Church to the contrary.

This canon is under the section on sacramentals. While we know that non-Catholics cannot have access to Catholic sacraments, except for a just cause under various circumstances, sacramentals may be more widely participated in by others. Ashes are considered by the Church a sacramental. Therefore, the imposition of ashes upon non-Catholics falls under canon 1170.

According to this canon, such blessings may be given to non-Catholics unless prohibited elsewhere by law. There is no such prohibition in liturgical law, but there is a restriction. The Book of Blessings says:

The season of Lent begins with the ancient practice of marking the baptized with ashes as a public and communal sign of penance (no. 1656).

Ashes may be imposed upon baptized non-Catholics, but not unbaptized persons. Persons not yet regenerated through the Sacrament of Baptism cannot, properly speaking, do penance, nor can they share in the “communal” aspect of the sign. Baptism is the gateway to the community of God’s faithful people.

- CUF.ORG - Ash Wednesday questions

[AnAmericanMother]

You should still be able to make the 6 p.m. Imposition of Ashes.

Our church has FIVE services today . . .

[trisham]

Interesting. I confess I know little about the subject.

[hellinahandcart]

"Our Lady of Dormition", which I attended faithfully for two decades (before I started actually going to church).

[hellinahandcart]

I'm really happy for you, AAM.

[Nihil Obstat]

Those quotes are from a book called "The Trail of Blood" or something like that. It's like quoting Jack Chick.

[AnAmericanMother]

I'm not going but to one service. . . . < g >

Our choirmaster is so laid back - last Sunday he said, "OK, anybody who wants to sing, show up for the 6 o'clock. We'll see how many show up, then we'll decide what to sing . . . "

Guess we'll see what we get. (Thank goodness I can read music . . . )

[dixiechick2000]

This is surprising.


I don't think they are Southern Baptists.

[AnAmericanMother]

Is "Our Lady of Dormition" really a church, or is it like the "Bedsprings United Assembly of God"?

[hellinahandcart]

LOL, no, it was a joke name. Like "St. Mattress of the Springs."

[trisham]

Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)

This quote is a fake.

************

Is this what you mean?

PART I. Cardinal Hosius and that infamous "statement":

Is it genuine?

The statement reads as follows:

"Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)" Quoted in the "Trail of Blood" by J. Carroll.

Does this statement exist in his complete works? No.

The complete works of Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius were published in two volumes in 1584 in Cologne, under the title "Opera Omnia". The complete title reads as follows:

D.STANISLAI HOSII, S R E CARDINALIS, MAIORIS POENITENTIARII; ET EPISCOPI VARMIENSIS

"Opera Omnia in Duos divisa tomos, quorum primus ab ipso auctore plurimus subinde in locis, integris & dimidijs paginis sic auctus & recognitus, ut novum opus fere censeri possit. Secundum autem totus novus, nuncque primus typis excusus."

Coloniae

Apud Maternum Cholinum

Anno M. D. L XXXIIII

The purported statement is nowhere to be found in the letters of Cardinal Hosius

There is no section titled "Apud Opera" among Hosius‘ complete works. And there is no letter of that name. So the reference "Letters, Apud Opera" is apparently meaningless. Similarly, I could find no publication of his with this title.

I decided to check all of Cardinal Hosius‘ letters for references to the Anabaptists. The section in his "Opera Omnia" entitled "Liber Epistelarum" contains all of Cardinal Hosius‘ letters, 277 in total, written in Latin. I have read through all of these letters, and in only 12 of them (letters XXVIII, XLI, XLIII, CV, CXVI, CXXVIII, CXXIX, CXXXIV, CL, CLVII, CLVIII, and CLX) is there any mention of the Anabaptists. In none of them is to be found the statement cited at the top. To all intents and purposes, this statement appears to be a fake...

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/forgeries/hosius.html

[AnAmericanMother]

Yeah, if it were a real church name it would probably be "The Dormition of Our Lady". . . .

The Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Damascus is "The Cathedral of the Dormition of Our Lady".

[NYer]

Great story! You should read the book Raymond Arroyo wrote about her. She was determined to go to Alabama and nothing would hold her back. Raising the money to build the monastery and shrine is nothing short of a miracle. Great book! Couldn't put it down.

[trisham]

It's like quoting Jack Chick.

*************

So it seems. :)

Jack Chick

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jack Thomas Chick (born April 13, 1924) of Chick Publications is a comic book artist and publisher. He is known for his controversial comic-style tracts (informally known as Chick Tracts) and larger comic books for the purpose of Christian evangelism from a fundamentalist point of view. Chick is an Independent Baptist, a premillennial dispensationalist, follower of the King James Only Movement, and strongly anti-Catholic.

[NYer]

When I was a kid in Catechism class, we used to make up names for churches, like: "Our Lady of Perpetual Motion", "Our Lady of the Pyrrhic Victory", "Our Lady of Bingo", etc.

You must read this book!

Chapters include - Questions we didn't have the nerve to ask, What to give nuns for Christmas, Father 'What a Waste' ... the book is hillarious!

[Convert from ECUSA]

"God bless Mother Angelica!"

Amen and right on!