Posted on 02/24/2006 8:40:59 AM PST by conserv371
Right now there is huge debate going on about whether the church will go through the tribulation. After studying some passages that seem to convincingly lean toward a pre-trib rapture. First of all, Jesus in Luke 17:26, states that "And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man." We learn of two key individuals during that time Enoch and Noah. Enoch who some have seen as a type of the church is translated before the Flood while Noah is delivered through the world-wide judgment.
We also find in Luke 12:37-40 gives evidence it could happen at second or third watch like a thief and to be ready since the Son of man comes at an hour when you don't think He will come. Jesus further exhorts that servants may start treating fellow servants harshly and getting drunk. The lord will come in a day when he looks not for him and at an hour when he is not aware. This seems to suggest some semblance of peace since drunkeness occurs in this case with ease. In fact, the servant has said in his heart, "My lord delays in his coming"; These give the appearance of a lack of persecution going on world-wide since the servant is not watching. With persecution, there would be no time for drunkeness since people would be hiding for their lives.
James states in 5:8b "for the coming of the Lord draws near."
In I Thess. 5:2, the Apostle Paul states that "the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night." What does a professional thief do? He plunders the house without the occupants waking up until morning to find their valuables gone. Again there is calm while the robbery is taking place. Furthermore Paul states, they shall say Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them, as birth pains upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. This seems to indicate there is a them and us. Sudden destruction on them but you are not surprised. In vs. 9, 10 he states "For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. The tribulation is the wrath of the Lamb so why would the Jesus put wrath of His spiritual body after His physical body experienced God's wrath.
Also, in II Thess. we find that the Holy Spirit with whom believers are sealed with is prevent the mystery of iniquity to work fully. The Holy Spirit must be taken out of the way before the wicked one "Anti-christ" is revealed. All mention of the churches goes silent after chapter 3 of Revelation while the man of peace (Anti-christ)on the white horse shows up in Rev. 6. The last church (Laodicean church) is not looking for the rapture. Also, Christ states to the church of Philadelphia that he will keep them from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Tribulation)
No, the truth is we must watch and be ready for Christ's imminent return. I believe the rapture will be a cataclysmic event that make the world beg for a ruler of peace to calm down the world. God likes to have major events to display His power so it would seem likely that the Tribulation will begin with the vanishing of Christ's spiritual body which states in Romans 11:25 requires the fulness of the Gentiles be come in before it happens which is when God will take away the blindness of Israel. Right now, when a google search is done, one can see many people turning to christ. The harvest rate is accelerating. Jesus at Rev. 22:20 says, "Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
He doesn't beem them up when the going gets rough. As I recall He parted the Red Sea and made a way for them to go through. After that, they spent how many years in the wilderness before they reached the promised land? Scripture supports my view, not the escapist views of fundamentlaists.
On the contrary. Quite the opposite is the case. Look in this mirror and see your reflection:
"...engaging [in] what I will call from here on "trailer park scholarship" .... Who are these people trying to kid? Their scholarship, as a whole, is reckless and pitiable; what they know, they have learned from reading a few popular books with no conception of the broader issues and fields at hand. .. "Why did God make the Bible so hard to understand, then?" It isn't -- none of this keeps a person from grasping the message of the Bible to the extent required to be saved; where the line is to be drawn is upon those who gratuitously assume that such base knowledge allows them to be competent critics [or commentators] of the text, and make that assumption in absolute ignorance of their own lack of knowledge -- what I have elsewhere spoken of in terms of being "Unskilled and Unaware of it: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments" ["It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. .....Incompetent individuals will suffer from deficient metacognitive skills, in that they will be less able than their more competent peers to recognize competence when they see it-be it their own or anyone else's. ...] If they would at least admit that it might be a possibility that they are incompetent, then it is possible for them to educate themselves so as to be able to recognize incompetence in those they look to as "Bible teachers":
For instance, they could go here: Apologetics Index, notice some alphabet letters, and click on the L and that will link them to the Left Behind Series (Note: Due to its faulty theology, these books are not recommended by Apologetics Index).
And they could realize that there were people promoting variations of those same sorts of ideas long before Darby, LaHaye, et.al., came along.-LOL bttt
There are 7 trumpets (Book of Revelations). Jesus comes back at the LAST trumpet (the 7th trumpet).
Which means all of God's people (not just Jewish converts to Christianity) will be here on earth through trumpets 1-7 (except for those, of course, who die a regular natural death and go on to be with the Lord).
During the pouring out of His wrath, God has a plan for His people to be protected, just as Noah was protected during the flood of judgment on the world.
And also Lot was protected from the wrath and judgment of Sodom, Gomorrha, and the surrounding cities (see the Book of Jude).
In both cases (Noah and Lot), they were still on the earth (did not go flying off) -- but were protected and spared by God.
Jesus specifically used the days of Noah and Lot...."as it was in the days of Noah (Lot), so shall it be in the days of the Son of Man"....(see Matthew chapter 24 and Luke chapter 17).
In both cases, the wicked were the ones TAKEN... "the flood came and took them all away.... the fire came and destroyed them all...."
Bookmark
The Ruth / Boez parallel is also interesting. I've never heard of this and hope to find study time on this subject also.
Quite an interesting post, and link...I find it fascinating that your church teaches it's members that the average Catholic can not understand the Bible...The average Catholic can not know God thru the Bible...
Superior intelligence and education are required to understand what God has to say to his people...
But the very same Bible that you claim I can't possibly understand says that Jesus provides the understanding...
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures,...
Now you're likely to tell me that in that context, the understaning was only given to apostles, bishops and popes...
But Paul however has something else to say about it...
1Co 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1Co 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
Looks like grace has something to do with knowledge for the average Christian...
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Now Paul didn't waste 10 seconds trying to prove how smart he was by going to the original Hebrew...
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Paul, as a Christian got his knowledge from the Holy Spirit...
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God...
God reveals to us by his Spirit...Doesn't say anything about a chuch...
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
And we as saved Christians have received THAT Spirit...
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
But we have the mind of Christ...
And one more verse that you won't find in a Catholic Bible as it's written here...
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Study, and rightly divide the word of truth...
If you have an 8th grade education, you can know what God has to say as well as anyone whith a PHd...God did not reserve 'any' of the Bible for popes, bishops or apostles...
Study, rightly divide the word of truth, believe what you are reading (don't worry about understanding, God will provide that) and tons of prayer...
Have a nice day...
I find it facinating that incompetents who are't able to comprehend what they read still plow on with their inexplicable comments as they continue to make fools out of themselves. LOL
And I thought you catholics were full of love...Your slip is showing...
And that's a really good retort you have there...I can't comprehend what I read...Ha...
The Bible was written so that any 8th grader could get it...The problem isn't understanding it...The problem is believing it...
I encourage everyone to pick up a bible and study and with a prayerful heart, the doors will be opened...
I'm not Roman Catholic, so you just proved my point. You don't comprehend what you claim to have read. Anyhow, I'm outta here --- you're a one-armed boat-rower and can only go in circles. Buh bye!
That scripture is not talking about a storm but God's goodness. God in grace treats the believer differently than the unbeliever. Example is a Sri Lankan pastor who rode out the tsunami with all staff and orphans and none of them were killed. He spoke out against the wave. Christians are favored of God, unbelievers are not even though God shows kindness.
I agree totally. The interesting aspect is Christ says people will not be expecting it hence the view of eating, drinking, marrying, carrying on normal life. If Christians are engaged with running for their lives and escaping death, they would probably focused when they would escape if they hold on.
Rather than start a new thread, it seems more fitting to add to this one. I mostly agree that the priority is to be ready regardless. And, I still don't think anyone has it all figured out. I was reared pre-Trib then moved to a--'God will make it all pan out, regardless' position--which I still largely hold. However, LaHaye and Jenkins are also quite convincing.
Am reading Tim LaHaye & Jerry B Jenkins: ARE WE LIVING IN THE END TIMES?
It is often contended that John Darby was the first to mention the Pre-trib perspective. Clearly, that's not so.
pp112-115:
. . . p114 Darby claimed he got the inspiration for his understanding of a pre-Trib rapture in 1828 afterhe saw the distinction between Israel and the church in his study of the book of Ephesians. Few scholars who do not make that distinction see a pre-Trib rapture of the church. In fact, separating Israel and the church is one of the major keys to rightly understanding Bible lprophecy. Second is taking the prophetic Scriptures literally whenever possible. Grant Jeffrey, a current prophecy scholar and speaker, has done extensive research into the writings of many prophecy teachers prior to the eighteenth century. In his book Apocalypse, he quotes many who had a definite understanding of the difference between the two phases of our Lord's coming, particularly His coming for His people prior to the Tribulation and the revealing of the 'man of sin.' Jeffrey's most important contribution was his electrifying discovery of a statement in an apocalyptic sermon from the fourth century. [Qx emphasis added, as usual] Designated Pseudo-Ephraim, there is some question that it was really written by Ephraim of Nisibis, (A.D. 306-373), a prolific Syrian church father. Some prefer a later date for this homily, called "Sermon on the End of the World," and suggest it may not have been written until A.D. 565-627. For our purpose, the real date is immaterial, for allowing its composition as late as the seventh century proves that even at this early date (eleven hundred years before John Darby), some Christians saw the Rapture occurring before the Tribulation. In challenging Christians to holy living (always a result of Rapture teaching), the ancient author wrote:
LaHaye and Jenkins make many good points demonstrating from Scripture that the pre-Trib rapture is the only construction on such realities that covers the most data points. I hope to post some of their points in the coming days.
I expect what happens will happen.
I don’t expect to be raptured out, to be honest though, but whatever God chooses is OK with me.
But I don’t lose sleep on it either way.
I sometimes wonder if the rapture warning isn't a parable for something else: perhaps denying Christ and getting left behind in a world without Christians.
Agreed.
An interesting idea.
I’m convinced at this point, it’s a literal thing.
I don’t get your meaning about Mark 13
Heading off to the college shortly.
Only that Mark was written first (unless further research has proved that wrong). Chapter 13 is where the “after much tribulation” phrase appears, just as it does in Matthew.
that is the difference between the second coming and the rapture.
If the Church was to go through the tribulation, it would hardly be a blessed hope to look forward to. I believe if Christ meant for the Church to go through the tribulation, there would be specific instructions how to do so.
Pauls teaching on the rapture in thessolonians tells us to comfort one another with these words, not scare the living daylights out of each other with these words
also, the church in thessolonians thought they had missed the rapture, but the trib had not happened, so they were obviously a pre-trib church, and had been taught on the end times by Paul himself
bookmark
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