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No one is "saved" until they actually die and are admitted into Heaven. It is presumptuous to look at human history and all who have backslidden and just assume that you are not going to be one of them.

Dave, why did Jesus have to die if his death couldn't be enough to save you?

God says you can know you are saved, He can give you that peace.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Why would you willingly chose to disregard what God says, not believe Him and follow a man made path that leads to an eternity in Hell?

Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world,
and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Mark 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

No one is "saved" until they actually die and are admitted into Heaven. It is presumptuous to look at human history and all who have backslidden and just assume that you are not going to be one of them.

Dave, why did Jesus have to die if his death couldn't be enough to save you?

Why do you continue to have these imaginary conversations where you make believe I say one thing, and then respond to it?

Where did I ever say Jesus death was not enough to save me?

Like most who can't or won't understand sacraments, you insist we are talking about who does the saving instead of talking about how the salvation is applied to our souls.

Like I said days ago, this is like insisting we don't believe water can wash us if we have installed pipes and faucets. "How come you have plumbing? Don't you believe in water?"

It's non-sensical, and you should really endeavour to find out what it is you are arguing against. Setting up a rude caricature based on your own misconceptions impresses no one.

God says you can know you are saved, He can give you that peace.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God

Yes. "These things" he has written. Not just this one verse. If we follow the commandments and do all that John tells us in his letters, we can be assured that we will die in a state of grace. This is what I already told you.

John didn't say "just quote this one verse and then assume you are saved because you read it." He actually expects you to read his entire letter and live up to it. Then you can know, not because you one day decided you wanted to be "saved."

SD

"Dave, why did Jesus have to die if his death couldn't be enough to save you?"

I don't think the sufficiency of Christ's death is in question here, Full Court. Christ's Sacrifice on the cross was Holy and Perfect, and was sufficient to save the whole World. The question is how is that applied to the individual? Are all saved by Christ's perfect Sacrifice? According to Scripture, not all are saved. This is not because Christ's Sacrifice is insufficient, it is because the individual does not accept the Free gift of Salvation.

"God says you can know you are saved, He can give you that peace."

Well, God is certainly the God of peace. He doesn't say, however we know we are guaranteed to go to Heaven at the end of our lives regardless of what we do after converting to Christ. What He gives us is an assurance that if we Persevere until the end, we will be saved.

"You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved" (Matthew 10:22)

Scripture is clear that those who accept the word of God with great joy but later reject it.

"Again he began to teach beside the sea. And a very large crowd gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole crowd was beside the sea on the land. And he taught them many things in parables, and in his teaching he said to them: "Listen! A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it. Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it had not much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil; and when the sun rose it was scorched, and since it had no root it withered away. Other seed fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain. And other seeds fell into good soil and brought forth grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold." And he said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven." And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown; when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word which is sown in them. And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns; they are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world, and the delight in riches, and the desire for other things, enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown upon the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold." (Mark 4: 1-20)

Here we see that some receive the Word of God with great joy, but fall away during times of difficulty. Christ says that we must not only accept the Word, but we must also bear fruit.

Scripture also says that some have received the gift of the Holy Spirit and later fallen away:

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned." (Hebrews 6: 4-8)

You have quoted a number of beautiful Scriptures from the Writings of the Apostle John discussing Eternal Life:

"I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5: 13)

The key thing here is that is that those who believe (present tense, ongoing) have (present tense, not future) eternal life, (Whatever that may mean in this context.) The Scripture does not say: "He who has once believed," it says that those who believe (ongoing) have eternal life. The need to persevere is quite explicit elsewhere in Scripture, and is implied as well in 1 John 5:13.

An additional question is, what did John mean by eternal Life? I think you are understanding it to mean Heaven. That would make the statement, as I think you have interpreted it, say: Once a person has believed sincerely at some point in his life, he is already in heaven. John, however, doesn't define eternal life in quite this sense.

"And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17: 3)

This Eternal Life is, in a sense, a foretaste of Heaven, an acceptance of the Truth of God which is central to the experience of the Blessed in Heaven.

The assurance that we have is that IF we cling to the Promises of Christ, and live according to them, we will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven as a free and undeserved gift to adopted Children. That is, the Kingdom of Heaven, which is true and good, belongs to those who cling to truth and love that which is good.

"If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies; who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us? Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, "For thy sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8: 31-39)

If God is for us, who can be against us? The answer is, we ourselves. We can choose to make a shipwreck of our faith, rejecting conscience, and fail to live according to a true faith in God.

"....By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith,.." (1 Tim: 19)

Hence the righteous man LIVES by faith.

"That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." (Romans 11: 20-22)

We stand based on faith. And as the Apostle Paul elsewhere tells us:

"Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall." (1 Cor 10: 12)

The point is that we are always dependent upon the Mercy and kindness of God, and we know that we can trust in God's faithfulness and love, and must therefore live in obedience to His will, not like Adam and Eve, who doubted God's providence, but rather like Abraham, who trusted that God would do whatever He promised, even in the face of a reality which suggested otherwise. We have faith in God because we know that God loves us and is looking out for our best interest, and living by Faith means living according to what God tells us, even if it seems to be at odds with our own judgment of what we would like.

The other Scriptures which you quote, Matthew 16:26 , Mark 8:36, and Mark 8:37, while important as Scriptures, do not pertain to the topic of Eternal Security in a specific way, which is what is under discussion in the post.

Regards,

-iq

"Why would you willingly chose to disregard what God says, not believe Him and follow a man made path that leads to an eternity in Hell?"

Full Court,

Can you elaborate on what you mean by willfully disregarding what God says? I can assure you as a Catholic that the Church does not disregard what God says.

What do you see as a man made path that leads to Hell? We often see people who are very angry at what they mistakenly believe to be the Catholic Faith. Can you elaborate on the specifics of what offends you in the Catholic Faith?

God says you can know you are saved, He can give you that peace.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

OK. Let's take a look at this verse. You seem to use this as proof that you are "saved" now and forever. That this verse was written so that all who may read it will have assurance of salvation.

But that isn't what it says. John says he wrote "these things" so that we may know. Wouldn't it be wise to look at what else he wrote in his letter, rather than just taking this one verse out of context?

All following verses from 1 John.

1 john 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

So we must not merely say (or profess) faith, we must avoid walking in darkness (that is, actively living sinful lives), or else our profession is a lie. Clearly there is more to it than just reading one verse and therefore presuming salvation.

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

He implores us here again to avoid sin. This is one of the things written, we should pay it heed. No mere vocalization of a faith is enough to assure us forever of salvation.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We must abide the commandments (love God and love one another) in order to truly be in him. This is an ongoing thing, not one day deciding we want to be "saved."

Note also he that says he abides in God "ought himself also to walk." Had salvation been a given, John would have said that such a person will automatically, as a matter of course, walk as Jesus walked. Not that they "ought" to , lest their profession of faith be a lie.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Abide in him. John writes as if we have a choice to abide or not, to walk in the darkness or not. He implores us over and over to stay the course. Very odd for a man who (presumably) wrote 5:13 so we could easily know we were saved forever.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

In order to be "born of him" one must "doeth righteousness." Not just "accept Jesus" one day.

3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Because we keep his commandments and do pleasing things. Not because of a profession of faith.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

So much for salvation by "faith alone." We must believe on His Name and love one another.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Again, keeping his commandments is linked to dwelling in him.

4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Again, if we love one another, God dwells in us.

So, still wish to use 5:13 as some sort of proof text of easy knowledge of eternal salvation?

SD

Dave, why did Jesus have to die if his death couldn't be enough to save you?

It was enough -- we just have to accept it. And how do we do that? it's as SD says