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Where Have All the Protestants Gone?
NOR ^ | January 2006 | Thomas Storck

Posted on 02/15/2006 6:22:47 AM PST by NYer

Has anyone noticed the almost complete disappearance of Protestants from our nation? "What!" I can hear my readers exclaim, "Storck has really gone off his rocker this time. Why, just down the street there's an Assembly of God church and two or three Baptist churches and the Methodists and so on. My cousin just left the Catholic Church to become a Protestant and my niece just married one. Moreover, evangelical Protestants have many media outlets of their own and they have great influence in the Bush Administration. They're everywhere." All this, of course, is true. Except that for some time, they no longer call themselves Protestants, but simply Christians, and increasingly they've gotten Catholics to go along with their terminology.

I recall over 10 years ago when I was a lector at Mass, for the prayer of the faithful I was supposed to read a petition that began, "That Catholics and Christians…." Of course, I inserted the word "other" before "Christians," but I doubt very many in the congregation would even have noticed had I not done so. Just the other day I saw on a Catholic website an article about a Protestant adoption agency that refused to place children with Catholic parents. The headline referred not to a Protestant adoption agency but to a Christian one. And how often do we hear of Christian bookstores or Christian radio stations or Christian schools, when everyone should know they are Protestant ones?

Now, what is wrong with this? Well, it should be obvious to any Catholic -- but probably isn't. Are only Protestants Christians? Are we Catholics not Christians, indeed the true Christians? About 30 years ago, Protestants, especially evangelicals, began to drop the term Protestant and call themselves simply Christians as a not too subtle means of suggesting that they are the true and real Christians, rather than simply the children of the breakaway Protestant revolt of the 16th century. This shift in Protestant self-identification has taken on increasingly dramatic proportions. A recent Newsweek survey (Aug. 29-Sept. 5, 2005) found that, between 1990 and 2001, the number of Americans who consider themselves "Christian" (no denomination) increased by 1,120 percent, while the number of those who self-identify as "Protestant" decreased by 270 percent.

But perhaps I am getting too worked up over a small matter. After all, are not Protestants also Christians? Yes, I do not deny that. But usually we call something by its most specific name.

Protestants are theists too, but it would surely sound odd if we were to refer to their radio stations and bookstores as theistic radio stations and theistic bookstores. Language, in order to be useful, must convey human thought and concepts in as exact a way as it can. And, in turn, our thoughts and concepts should reflect reality. As Josef Pieper noted, "if the word becomes corrupted, human existence will not remain unaffected and untainted."

Moreover, words often convey more than simple concepts. A certain word may seem only to portray reality, but in fact it does more. It adds a certain overtone and connotation. Thus, it is not a small matter whether we speak of "gays" or of homosexuals. The former term was chosen specifically to inculcate acceptance of an unnatural and immoral way of life. When I was an Episcopalian, I was careful never to speak of the Catholic Church, but of the Roman Catholic Church, as a means of limiting the universality of her claims. I always called Episcopal ministers priests, again as a means of affirming that such men really were priests, in opposition to Leo XIII's definitive judgment that Anglican orders are invalid and thus that they are in no sense priests. Perhaps because of these early experiences, I am very aware of the uses of language to prejudge and control arguments, and I am equally careful now never to call Episcopal ministers priests or refer to one as Father So-and-So. And I think we should likewise not go along with the evangelical Protestant attempt to usurp the name Christian for themselves. They are Protestants, and public discourse should not be allowed to obscure that fact.

Apparently, though, it is the case that some Protestants call themselves Christians, not out of a desire to usurp the term, but out of an immense ignorance of history. That is, they ignore history to such an extent that they really don't understand that they are Protestants. Knowing or caring little about what came before them, they act as if their nicely bound Bibles had fallen directly from Heaven and anyone could simply become a Christian with no reference to past history, ecclesiology, or theology. The period of time between the conclusion of the New Testament book of Acts and the moment that they themselves "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior" means nothing. Even Luther or Calvin or John Wesley mean little to them, since they can pick up their Bibles and start Christianity over again any time they want. These souls may call themselves simply Christians in good faith, but they are largely ignorant of everything about Church history. They do not understand that Jesus Christ founded a Church, and that He wishes His followers to join themselves to that Church at the same time as they join themselves to Him. In fact, one implies and involves the other, since in Baptism we are incorporated in Christ and made members of His Church at the same time.

So let us not go along with the widespread practice of calling our separated brethren simply Christians. They are Protestants. Let us begin again to use that term. It is precise. It implies Catholic doctrine in the sense that it suggests that such people are in protest against the Church. Moreover, it forces them to define themselves in terms of, rather than independently of, the One True Church. And if we do resume referring to our separated brethren as Protestants, perhaps a few of them might even be surprised enough to ask us why -- and then, behold, a teachable moment!


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: abortion; branson; catholics; christians; churchhistory; contraception; protestants
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To: gscc
"To point to the usage when applied to our earthly biological father and then compare it to the meaning in the Scripture citation is not valid. He is clearly speaking of spiritual leaders."

Gscc, Jesus, the Apostle Matthew, and St. Paul all use the term "father" to refer to Spiritual leaders. If we read it literally, the passage says, call no man on earth your father. A literal reading would exclude the use of the word "Father" entirely, biological or otherwise. Did Jesus want us to invent another word for "Father"? Was that the intention of this passage? If so, why would Matthew use the word "Father" dozens of times to refer to people as Father, including, "Father Abraham." A literal interpretation was not what Jesus or Matthew had in mind. The passage means that God is more of a Father to us than any earthly father can ever be, because He loves us and wants what is best for us.
1,521 posted on 02/23/2006 4:00:59 PM PST by InterestedQuestioner (Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

Note: You are talking of Saint, Capital S which refers to one that it is kosher to pray to because the Church is certain that they are already in Heaven (no purgatory for them.)

This in no way denies the reality that we are All called to be saints, little C, and that we ALL hope to be in heaven one day.


1,522 posted on 02/23/2006 4:18:53 PM PST by Flavius Josephus (LSM: Controversy, Crap, & Confusion)
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To: SoothingDave

Dave -- there are more than one interpretation as to what was meant when He said to treat them as a tax collector or a sinner. BTW, I thought that was something Paul wrote. Anyway, I've been taught to look at that as looking at the person that is in need of conversion all over again, who has fallen.

A person like that is not "put out of the community." He is invited to "Come taste and see how gracious the Lord is" Ps38 all over again. Jesus didn't reject the tax collector and the sinner, as the lefties never tire of reminding us, but he did require them to give up their sin.


1,523 posted on 02/23/2006 4:22:40 PM PST by Flavius Josephus (LSM: Controversy, Crap, & Confusion)
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To: NYer
Where Have All the Protestants Gone?

Uh, ... Branson?

1,524 posted on 02/23/2006 4:22:49 PM PST by x
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To: XeniaSt
"Call on His Name is one chapter from the e-book Reuniting the Covenant I bought a copy in ebook form."

I appreciate your recommendation. What did you enjoy the most about the book?
1,525 posted on 02/23/2006 4:33:29 PM PST by InterestedQuestioner (Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.)
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To: InterestedQuestioner

The simplest explanation is in placing the "call no man father" in its historical context as well as literal context. Since Christ is talking about calling men masters and teachers as well as fathers, He is referring to the honorifics given various rabbis of His time, who had devoted followers. They had cadres of followers that belonged to "houses" and the rabbi would be called a "father" of that "house". The warning is then not to follow sectarian teachers, like we sometime do our parents, blindly, to the point that the unity of faith is fractured.

Clearly, we have numerous references to fathers, teachers and masters in the New Testament, so the prohibition in Matthew 23 was taken but allegorically by the inspired authors.


1,526 posted on 02/23/2006 4:50:49 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
The simplest explanation is in placing the "call no man father" in its historical context as well as literal context. Since Christ is talking about calling men masters and teachers as well as fathers, He is referring to the honorifics given various rabbis of His time, who had devoted followers. They had cadres of followers that belonged to "houses" and the rabbi would be called a "father" of that "house". The warning is then not to follow sectarian teachers, like we sometime do our parents, blindly, to the point that the unity of faith is fractured.


1,527 posted on 02/23/2006 5:25:09 PM PST by gscc
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To: InterestedQuestioner
What did you enjoy the most about the book?

The insights into the early church and the love and explanation of the Torah.

b'shem Y'shua

1,528 posted on 02/23/2006 5:28:12 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Trust in YHvH forever, for the LORD, YHvH is the Rock eternal. (Isaiah 26:4))
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To: gscc

Where's the problem?

I wish they kissed his shoe as the tradition demands.


1,529 posted on 02/23/2006 5:32:07 PM PST by annalex
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To: InterestedQuestioner
I've expended all the energy on this subject for the evening as I'm willing to give. If you only knew how many John 6 discussions I've had on this thread. One of the few chapters in the Bible catholics take literally. lol.

Yes I had a Teshuva about 30 years ago which involved Jesus Christ. I asked God to always lead me in truth. I've not been afraid to follow where God's truth has led me. All part the journey. I wish you the best on yours.

1,530 posted on 02/23/2006 6:19:28 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Cronos; InterestedQuestioner

if Mary didn't have sex with Joseph she sinned and her children were by some other man.

So did she have sex with her husband as the Bible says (and you catholics insist is not true) or were her children by someone other than her husband?

Also, the Bible says that married couples do not with hold sex from one another.

So if Mary did not have sex, she sinned.

James 4:17  Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.


1,531 posted on 02/23/2006 8:00:37 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: Flavius Josephus
and that we ALL hope to be in heaven one day.

Why do you only hope? Why don't you know?

Wasn't what Jesus did once and for all enough?

Jesus isn't enough?

1,532 posted on 02/23/2006 8:03:03 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: InterestedQuestioner
I'm talking about the Real Presence, that is, the doctrine that Jesus is phycially present in the Eucharist.

Where does he go when you eat him?

1,533 posted on 02/23/2006 8:05:46 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: Cronos

He is talking about sex in that passage.

But the wife is still to be submissive to the husband. Fod the woman was created for the man, not the other way around.


1,534 posted on 02/23/2006 8:08:33 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: Dewy
Religion will carry a person straight to hell.

Ok, I guess you really hate all those who generalise......
1,535 posted on 02/23/2006 8:36:25 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia! Ultra-Catholic)
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To: OLD REGGIE
The Vatican is not a policital entity?

It does not have Diplomats (by whatever name) in any country in the world which will allow them into the country? Diocese's (sp?) in trouble throughout the world don't claim the Vatican, not they, own their so-called property?

I could go on and on but I think I'll wait for you to claim that the RCC is nothing but a simple Church with no political or worldly ambitions.

The fact that there is organization (note that I omitted the word "an" in this statement) somehow negates that the Church is a body of believers?

There is nothing wrong with a Church being organized. It certianly makes more practical sense then having total anarchy. It also surely has spiritual benefits. A Church that is united visibly is able to do much more to have a rich spirituality that continually strengthens its adherents and the wider world.

The fact that the Catholic Church also is a legal and political entity is just a fact of living in the world. Someone has to own the property. Someone has to pay the rent. Someone has to represent the Church to the UN or the nations of the world.
1,536 posted on 02/23/2006 8:43:12 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Full Court
Why do you only hope? Why don't you know?

Wasn't what Jesus did once and for all enough?

Jesus isn't enough?

Haven't we been through this topic at least twice on this thread? You've been presented with biblical evidence that "once saved, always saved" is not true, but you obviously don't care, preferring to make breastbeating rhetorical points like the one above.
1,537 posted on 02/23/2006 8:46:20 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: InterestedQuestioner
First, however, I'd really like to find out a little more about your work.

Thanks "Interested" for your interest, there's so much here I will try not to go too long. (I guess I did)

Does Remote Observation Vehicle mean that you are actually in the Vehicle when it descends, or is it an unmanned Robot that you control from the launching ship?

The Vessel is 250 ft long and 55 feet wide with 2 moon pools cut though the deck, one for the ROV and the other for work wires, etc. for construction work. The vessel is equipped with a "Dynamic Positioning System" consisting of a DP console on the bridge wired to the thrusters of the ship. The DP operator keys in commands activating thrust of the ship. I monitor and send 4 independent Differential Global Position Systems (DGPS) and Acoustic Transponder Reference positions from the seabed to the DP desk. The vessel then moves by the commands from the DP operator based these signals. He only needs to type in a range and bearing and the vessel drives itself to that point and stops. We can then "hold station" within a few feet indefinitely for months in the same spot and in any depth of water without the aid of anchors. The whole operation is monitored with Real Time Graphics displays showing the outline of all moving objects to scale as well as any bottom features, pipelines, wells, etc. We use our own navigation software to display these moving and stationary objects in whatever projection we are working in. What used to be done by hand, computers do every second. Spheroid to spheroid conversions and spheroid to projections (Geodesy)

The ROV is an unmanned vehicle (the size of a van)deployed through the moon pool from a winch drum with 16,000 feet of armoured electrical umbilical. The ROV itself is a very sophisticated ROBOT made of stainless steel tubing layered with specially designed blocks of syntactic foam (very dense foam) to give it slight positive buoyancy. It's loaded with fibre optics for cameras and twisted pairs of wires to run altitude, depth and pressure sensors. Hydraulically driven thrusters that pivot vertical and horizontal are on all sides to stabilize the ROV during operations, it flies like a helicopter but underwater. The ROV is equipped with 2 very strong hydraulically driven manipulator arms to do the work. This whole package rides in its own "cage" designed to carry the ROV to the working depth, the cage also has thrusters and cameras; Once the seabed is reached by the cage, with an altitude anywhere from 50 to 100 feet off bottom, the ROV flies out of the cage on its "tether". Tethers can range from 600 to over a 1000 feet depending on the system. The cage reel on here holds about 800 feet.

The WASP is a "manned" dive suit utilized when more dexterity is needed. The diver enters the suit feet first (there's no legs to this suit, just a compartment for his body in the tail). The suit is mounted on a stand and looks like it belongs in outer space. The Wasp suit's clear Plexiglas "globe" is then shut and sealed. It resembles a "wasp" hence the name. The Wasp is "flown" by the diver using manipulating levers to activate thrusters and arms built onto the suit. The Wasp is totally self-contained with oxygen tanks and only needs a cable to lift the suit over the side into the water via custom deployment crane; the cable remains attached during operations for safety reasons. The depth rating for this pressurized Wasp is about 2200 feet. Being the diver is breathing an air mixture there is no need for decompression as found with systems using a helium gas mixture. Basically its a submarine shaped like a wasp designed for a single person, not for me thank you.

When the WASP jobs are mobilized the paperwork states we need to be in "DP CLASS 2". This means I need not only DGPS but also 2 other independent sources of positioning for input into the DP Desk. It would be catastrophic to have a "drive off" because of a loss to satellite positioning. A mans life is at stake here, so I need 2 Intelligent Transponders positioned on the seabed as "Acoustic References". I actually calibrate these based on DGPS position. The other device is a "Fan Beam", a laser device that remains locked onto a prism reflector pre-installed on a nearby structure. The DP system takes in all these systems and "weighs" them into the solution checking one another constantly 24 hours a day. I wouldn't be typing to you on FreeRepublic during these operations.

Everything deployed over the side or through the moon pool must be tracked. USBL (Ultra Short Base Line) acoustics is the choice for average work but degrades in accuracy the deeper you get to the tune of 1 half % the water depth. So in 4000 feet I could be off by 20 feet at the seabed. This is okay for most of what we do. More expensive but highly accurate LBL (Long Base Line) acoustics is more desirable for construction work. Accuracies are in the order of 1 to 2 feet in any depth depending on the calibration of seabed array.

I mentioned I would try to keep it short, however that’s impossible to paint a picture of things with just a few paragraphs, let me try to finish up

So you can go about a third of a mile under water. What lives that far down?

More like 3 miles down, but very rarely do we go that deep, yet. Average depth is anywhere from 3000 to 8000 feet in the Gulf of Mexico. This is where our technology has taken us thus far in constructing permanent installations in ultra deep water. At these depths the creatures, as rare as they are, move very slow. Some so strange words cannot explain. I would see at times, very large crabs, things growing up out of the seabed like cactus, that seem to sense with contortions the lights of our arrival. At first you ask, is this a plant or some fleshy organism? One time I couldn't believe it, there was this fish, instead of bottom fins it had small legs and was actually walking on the seabed! Some of this stuff is right out of fossil records but they're alive! One other fish, translucent white, strolling ever so slowly one would think of it as a slow motion video, amazing. In shallower depths around 600 feet we get curious visitors. A whale hanging itself in the water column upside down as to get a better view of the ROV, looking right into the lens of the camera. Those are just some of neatest moments.

So, you're looking for damage under water? What sort of damage is that? Are you talking about damage to man made structures, or is this for ecological investigations? Can a hurricane cause damage 1600 feet under the sea? If so, how severe?

Man made structures yes... The industry is still playing catch up from Hurricane Ivan in 2004, Katrina and Rita added insult to injury in a big way.

There are structures in deep water that were meant to withstand Cat5 impact and for the most part they held up well considering they were hit with some say 70 foot waves.

Let me explain the designs first so you may have a better idea...There are 3 major platform designs implemented since 1994 which revolutionized the industry, these were first in the world built in our Gulf of Mexico. One is the TLP (Tension Leg Platform) next is a Compliant Tower (Rigid Steel Tower from the sea floor up, a skyscraper under the water. And finally the SPAR or DDCV (Deep Draft Caisson Vessel)

TLP first design was "Shell Auger" called TLWP which is TLP "wire assisted". Then came "Shell Mars" TLP, no wires. Steel tendons manufactured in Japan (they look plastic their so perfectly milled). These tendons are assembled together with special oil filled connection joints $40,000 a piece (no welding). The 250 foot sections assembled run the length to the seabed and stab into foundation piles pre-installed with an underwater hammer (German). LBL Positioning required, with inclinometer Compatts for verticality. My division manager wrote a story for Oil and Gas Journal and the first line of the first paragraph was: Imagine dangling a pencil by a string from the top of the Empire State building, landing the pencil in the middle of a nickel on the sidewalk below. That’s the accuracies in acoustic surveying needed to install the Shell Mars TLP foundation piles. The topside of the tendon stand is then attached to the bottom of 4 giant pontoons with 4 tendons stands per pontoon, the pontoon is actually the hull of the rig. The rig is ballasted down until the submerged top of the tendon comes in contact with the hull locking them in. The rig is then de-ballasted (floating the rig upwards) pulling tension on the tendons, hence its name TLP, all of this done in 4000 feet of water.

The DDCV is a floating structure much like a huge pipe section, though this one is 800 feet long and 150 feet in diameter. The hulls are built in Finland and shipped across the Atlantic on special transport ship. These Caissons are then brought to the site and flooded by pumping in seawater until it is vertical. A temporary work deck is then lifted to the top as a stage to run the chain winches for mooring wire recovery. The chains are attached to mooring piles 3 nautical miles out from center of location rising up to meet the hull which is now vertical. Usually the depth of water is around 4500 feet upwards to 6000 feet water depth. After all of this, a massive deck section is then installed on the top this caisson. The S7000 SSCV (Semi Submersible Crane Vessel) performed the lift for Exxon’s Diana DDCV, total weight of the deck was 9000 metric tons, and that was only one of 2 deck sections. The dual cranes on the S7000 have a combined lift capacity of 14,000 metric tons. Diana has 12 anchor piles / moorings holding her in position. Exxon engineers estimated 4 moorings would be more than sufficient to withstand the forces of a Cat5 hurricane, A bit overdone but we’re talking billions of dollars for just one platform. Each mooring cable is coated for protection and should last more than 30 years. We're talking some big stuff here, the interconnect and chain is massive with one link of chain weighing over a 100 lbs, just 2 links is the height of a man. The counter pin for the shackle looks like an artillery shell.

The Texaco Petronius Tower (Compliant Tower) is a "free standing" structure the height of the Sears Tower in Chicago except its underwater!

These facilities described above are still there after Ivan, Katrina and Rita. The main damage was due to very large wave heights smashing some components and modules on the upper decks. But the facilities themselves, in spite taking a beating they survived this awesome force

Where I am at present the water is very shallow in a place known as "the shelf", these are old fields. Water depth is around 75 to 150 feet and these are old structures from the 60s and 70s still producing, some anyway. Ground zero of Katrina cut a path along what is called "The Mississippi Canyon" where the Mississippi River empties into the Gulf. Thousands of years of sediment gave way on the seabed resulting in "liquefaction" causing an undersea avalanche. This mud flow I am told was travelling some 300 miles per hour after giving way under the sea. It literally sliced through the steel legs on some of these old platforms cutting them down like butter. All of this mess is on the seabed now, shattered pipelines and tap valves some buried too deep in mud to excavate and repair, they are just simply written off. We are presently using what is a deepwater designed system as a 2 million dollar dunker, just to hold some sonar equipment. But they have the money. The ROV stays in the Cage the whole time, rigged with special sonar devices for mapping called Multi-Beam. The resulting data creates a very impressive deliverable in a 3D mosaic map of the lost rigs. After all is done, someone will be able to navigate the hazards with caution though this maze of debris in order to decommission the still live oil and gas wells. That’s what’s going on. No attention is given to this story and more than likely will never run on television as to not upset Wall Street or drive up already high gas prices.

Do you use acoustic tracking because you can't track visually at those depths? I assume in colder waters that it's very dark at 1600 feet. Is that the case in the Gulf of Mexico?

The water I am in now is very murky but passed 1000 ft water depth is stunningly clear. Even when visibility is good we still need to "map" the area of concern with accuracy. To do this I must first find out the properties of the "water column" from surface to seabed. I deploy a sound velocity probe that gathers: Pressure, Temperature, Conductivity, Density, and Salinity. Based on the values derived we calculate a "Speed of Sound" through the water column for a particular location on that day. There are differences in temperature at certain depths so the "thermal cline" can change. We must check periodically due to weather and currents, seasonal change etc the validity of this data. The values for "Turn around time" in milliseconds are then applied in the Acoustic Processor. I can now acoustically track based on a correct turn around cycle of transmit and receive times. For this shallow water stuff it really does not make a difference in USBL positioning, the cage is only 60 below the hull, I just use the offset for the moon pool and I’m okay. The sonar’s need this turn around time more, so in this instance I just leave the probe logging in real time during data collection. Every time the sonar picks up an object it receives the reflection back to itself thereby creating an image. So its important to have that speed of sound coming in all the time to know how far away the object is for mapping.

Do you ever take the ROV into fresh water? If you're at 1600 feet depth in the Gulf of Mexico, how far out from the shore does that put you?

There are fresh water ROVs out there but they're small and usually hand tethered. Fish eyes we call them and mostly they are used for dam inspections etc. I haven't had any dealings with these ronco pocket ROVs. :)). There may be start up companies out there to make a buck with Home Land Security issues in ports, etc. which may prove to be profitable

Depending on what port you depart from and what part of the shelf East to West you are going, and what the shelf's widest point is, you may have to transit further South to reach 1600 feet of water. On average its about 1 hour helicopter ride or 8 to 12 hours boat transit. One of our main ports of call was a place called Venice, Louisiana. Katrina wiped this place off the map as it was on the tip of the toe of Louisiana’s boot. All the news kept talking about was New Orleans, with little mention of the even lower lining parishes like St Bernard and Plaquemine’s Parishes.

I know I went a bit long here, believe me there’s plenty more I left out. Very rarely do I explain what I do even back home and most certainly not to any level of detail. I may have gotten too much on the technical side, however I thought it nice to bring it life that way.

You may think differently about where I am this coming hurricane season. I will not be out here should another Katrina come I grant you that. Once is enough...1985 Hurricane Juan... still to this day the imagery of that experience lingers. 50 foot waves 400 feet apart with 120 mph blistering winds...The sea looked as though it merged with the sky...large amounts of water being vacuumed up in a torrent of chaos. Like giant fingers formed of black clouds scooping the tops of the swells like hands feeding a monster. Yes, I will be home on dry land for certain.

Now back to discussion about the "One" in control of all these things

Thanks again, God Bless

1,538 posted on 02/23/2006 9:50:59 PM PST by Clay+Iron_Times (The feet of the statue and the latter days of the church age)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
"I've expended all the energy on this subject for the evening as I'm willing to give."

That's fine, I'm not asking you to jump into the fray when you don't have a dog in the fight.

"Yes I had a Teshuva about 30 years ago which involved Jesus Christ."

More than a Teshuva, you were pointed to the Scriptures and to the Almighty One through Jesus. At some point, you were touched by the Sermon on the Mount, the call to Holiness and justice, the possibility of forgiveness, and the understanding that man has a higher purpose.

"I asked God to always lead me in truth. I've not been afraid to follow where God's truth has led me. All part the journey. "

That's pretty much all we can do, I.I. No one can ask anything more of you than that.

"I wish you the best on yours."

Thank you.
1,539 posted on 02/23/2006 9:51:00 PM PST by InterestedQuestioner (Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.)
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To: XeniaSt; Conservative til I die; Dewy
CtId confuses church with His roman Church. He thinks of Church as a man-made corporation headquartered in Rome.

The Church is the Catholic Church -- one of the Church communities in This Church of Christ is the Roman Catholic Church -- you also have the other Catholic Churchs in This Church (like the Maronite, Chaldean etc.) and the Orthodox Churchs. These constitute the Body of the Church that have remained true to the teachings of Christ. There are groups that have broken away and some heretics who have distorted the Truth of The Church completely -- this includes the ones who created the Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses and Islam and many groups that are Protestant.
1,540 posted on 02/23/2006 10:34:26 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia! Ultra-Catholic)
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