Where Have All the Protestants Gone?

Has anyone noticed the almost complete disappearance of Protestants from our nation? "What!" I can hear my readers exclaim, "Storck has really gone off his rocker this time. Why, just down the street there's an Assembly of God church and two or three Baptist churches and the Methodists and so on. My cousin just left the Catholic Church to become a Protestant and my niece just married one. Moreover, evangelical Protestants have many media outlets of their own and they have great influence in the Bush Administration. They're everywhere." All this, of course, is true. Except that for some time, they no longer call themselves Protestants, but simply Christians, and increasingly they've gotten Catholics to go along with their terminology.

I recall over 10 years ago when I was a lector at Mass, for the prayer of the faithful I was supposed to read a petition that began, "That Catholics and Christians…." Of course, I inserted the word "other" before "Christians," but I doubt very many in the congregation would even have noticed had I not done so. Just the other day I saw on a Catholic website an article about a Protestant adoption agency that refused to place children with Catholic parents. The headline referred not to a Protestant adoption agency but to a Christian one. And how often do we hear of Christian bookstores or Christian radio stations or Christian schools, when everyone should know they are Protestant ones?

Now, what is wrong with this? Well, it should be obvious to any Catholic -- but probably isn't. Are only Protestants Christians? Are we Catholics not Christians, indeed the true Christians? About 30 years ago, Protestants, especially evangelicals, began to drop the term Protestant and call themselves simply Christians as a not too subtle means of suggesting that they are the true and real Christians, rather than simply the children of the breakaway Protestant revolt of the 16th century. This shift in Protestant self-identification has taken on increasingly dramatic proportions. A recent Newsweek survey (Aug. 29-Sept. 5, 2005) found that, between 1990 and 2001, the number of Americans who consider themselves "Christian" (no denomination) increased by 1,120 percent, while the number of those who self-identify as "Protestant" decreased by 270 percent.

But perhaps I am getting too worked up over a small matter. After all, are not Protestants also Christians? Yes, I do not deny that. But usually we call something by its most specific name.

Protestants are theists too, but it would surely sound odd if we were to refer to their radio stations and bookstores as theistic radio stations and theistic bookstores. Language, in order to be useful, must convey human thought and concepts in as exact a way as it can. And, in turn, our thoughts and concepts should reflect reality. As Josef Pieper noted, "if the word becomes corrupted, human existence will not remain unaffected and untainted."

Moreover, words often convey more than simple concepts. A certain word may seem only to portray reality, but in fact it does more. It adds a certain overtone and connotation. Thus, it is not a small matter whether we speak of "gays" or of homosexuals. The former term was chosen specifically to inculcate acceptance of an unnatural and immoral way of life. When I was an Episcopalian, I was careful never to speak of the Catholic Church, but of the Roman Catholic Church, as a means of limiting the universality of her claims. I always called Episcopal ministers priests, again as a means of affirming that such men really were priests, in opposition to Leo XIII's definitive judgment that Anglican orders are invalid and thus that they are in no sense priests. Perhaps because of these early experiences, I am very aware of the uses of language to prejudge and control arguments, and I am equally careful now never to call Episcopal ministers priests or refer to one as Father So-and-So. And I think we should likewise not go along with the evangelical Protestant attempt to usurp the name Christian for themselves. They are Protestants, and public discourse should not be allowed to obscure that fact.

Apparently, though, it is the case that some Protestants call themselves Christians, not out of a desire to usurp the term, but out of an immense ignorance of history. That is, they ignore history to such an extent that they really don't understand that they are Protestants. Knowing or caring little about what came before them, they act as if their nicely bound Bibles had fallen directly from Heaven and anyone could simply become a Christian with no reference to past history, ecclesiology, or theology. The period of time between the conclusion of the New Testament book of Acts and the moment that they themselves "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior" means nothing. Even Luther or Calvin or John Wesley mean little to them, since they can pick up their Bibles and start Christianity over again any time they want. These souls may call themselves simply Christians in good faith, but they are largely ignorant of everything about Church history. They do not understand that Jesus Christ founded a Church, and that He wishes His followers to join themselves to that Church at the same time as they join themselves to Him. In fact, one implies and involves the other, since in Baptism we are incorporated in Christ and made members of His Church at the same time.

So let us not go along with the widespread practice of calling our separated brethren simply Christians. They are Protestants. Let us begin again to use that term. It is precise. It implies Catholic doctrine in the sense that it suggests that such people are in protest against the Church. Moreover, it forces them to define themselves in terms of, rather than independently of, the One True Church. And if we do resume referring to our separated brethren as Protestants, perhaps a few of them might even be surprised enough to ask us why -- and then, behold, a teachable moment!

No one is "saved" until they actually die and are admitted into Heaven. It is presumptuous to look at human history and all who have backslidden and just assume that you are not going to be one of them.

Dave, why did Jesus have to die if his death couldn't be enough to save you?

Why do you continue to have these imaginary conversations where you make believe I say one thing, and then respond to it?

Where did I ever say Jesus death was not enough to save me?

Like most who can't or won't understand sacraments, you insist we are talking about who does the saving instead of talking about how the salvation is applied to our souls.

Like I said days ago, this is like insisting we don't believe water can wash us if we have installed pipes and faucets. "How come you have plumbing? Don't you believe in water?"

It's non-sensical, and you should really endeavour to find out what it is you are arguing against. Setting up a rude caricature based on your own misconceptions impresses no one.

God says you can know you are saved, He can give you that peace.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God

Yes. "These things" he has written. Not just this one verse. If we follow the commandments and do all that John tells us in his letters, we can be assured that we will die in a state of grace. This is what I already told you.

John didn't say "just quote this one verse and then assume you are saved because you read it." He actually expects you to read his entire letter and live up to it. Then you can know, not because you one day decided you wanted to be "saved."

"Dave, why did Jesus have to die if his death couldn't be enough to save you?"

I don't think the sufficiency of Christ's death is in question here, Full Court. Christ's Sacrifice on the cross was Holy and Perfect, and was sufficient to save the whole World. The question is how is that applied to the individual? Are all saved by Christ's perfect Sacrifice? According to Scripture, not all are saved. This is not because Christ's Sacrifice is insufficient, it is because the individual does not accept the Free gift of Salvation.

"God says you can know you are saved, He can give you that peace."

Well, God is certainly the God of peace. He doesn't say, however we know we are guaranteed to go to Heaven at the end of our lives regardless of what we do after converting to Christ. What He gives us is an assurance that if we Persevere until the end, we will be saved.

"You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved" (Matthew 10:22)

Scripture is clear that those who accept the word of God with great joy but later reject it.

"Again he began to teach beside the sea. And a very large crowd gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole crowd was beside the sea on the land. And he taught them many things in parables, and in his teaching he said to them: "Listen! A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it. Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it had not much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil; and when the sun rose it was scorched, and since it had no root it withered away. Other seed fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain. And other seeds fell into good soil and brought forth grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold." And he said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven." And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown; when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word which is sown in them. And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns; they are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world, and the delight in riches, and the desire for other things, enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown upon the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold." (Mark 4: 1-20)

Here we see that some receive the Word of God with great joy, but fall away during times of difficulty. Christ says that we must not only accept the Word, but we must also bear fruit.

Scripture also says that some have received the gift of the Holy Spirit and later fallen away:

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned." (Hebrews 6: 4-8)

You have quoted a number of beautiful Scriptures from the Writings of the Apostle John discussing Eternal Life:

"I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5: 13)

The key thing here is that is that those who believe (present tense, ongoing) have (present tense, not future) eternal life, (Whatever that may mean in this context.) The Scripture does not say: "He who has once believed," it says that those who believe (ongoing) have eternal life. The need to persevere is quite explicit elsewhere in Scripture, and is implied as well in 1 John 5:13.

An additional question is, what did John mean by eternal Life? I think you are understanding it to mean Heaven. That would make the statement, as I think you have interpreted it, say: Once a person has believed sincerely at some point in his life, he is already in heaven. John, however, doesn't define eternal life in quite this sense.

"And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17: 3)

This Eternal Life is, in a sense, a foretaste of Heaven, an acceptance of the Truth of God which is central to the experience of the Blessed in Heaven.

The assurance that we have is that IF we cling to the Promises of Christ, and live according to them, we will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven as a free and undeserved gift to adopted Children. That is, the Kingdom of Heaven, which is true and good, belongs to those who cling to truth and love that which is good.

"If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies; who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us? Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, "For thy sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8: 31-39)

If God is for us, who can be against us? The answer is, we ourselves. We can choose to make a shipwreck of our faith, rejecting conscience, and fail to live according to a true faith in God.

"....By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith,.." (1 Tim: 19)

Hence the righteous man LIVES by faith.

"That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." (Romans 11: 20-22)

We stand based on faith. And as the Apostle Paul elsewhere tells us:

"Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall." (1 Cor 10: 12)

The point is that we are always dependent upon the Mercy and kindness of God, and we know that we can trust in God's faithfulness and love, and must therefore live in obedience to His will, not like Adam and Eve, who doubted God's providence, but rather like Abraham, who trusted that God would do whatever He promised, even in the face of a reality which suggested otherwise. We have faith in God because we know that God loves us and is looking out for our best interest, and living by Faith means living according to what God tells us, even if it seems to be at odds with our own judgment of what we would like.

The other Scriptures which you quote, Matthew 16:26 , Mark 8:36, and Mark 8:37, while important as Scriptures, do not pertain to the topic of Eternal Security in a specific way, which is what is under discussion in the post.

Regards,

-iq

Gargantua: "I was baptized as an adult, as Jesus says we must be."

Conservative til I die: "Where did Jesus describe baptism as you describe it?"

Full Court,

Acts 8:34-40 is a wonderful account of the Baptism of the Ethiopian Eunuch. The point of this Scripture is that no one is excluded from the invitation to Salvation. As a eunuch, its my understanding that this gentleman would have been excluded from entering into the Old Covenant by Jewish tradition. He asks the question, "what is to prevent me from being Baptized," and the answer is: "nothing."

Gargantua assertion is that Jesus said that we must be baptized. The request has been made to her to document the Scriptures where she sees this teaching. (There is no Scripture that says we must be adults to be addressed, so presumably she is looking at a Scripture which she feels implies this teaching.)

As for the Scripture you quoted, it gives an example of Baptism, but the particular form of this Baptism is not to be considered normative for all Christians. True, the man is in question is an adult. If this Scripture implies that we must all be adults to be baptized, then does it also imply that we must be eunuchs as well? Of course not.

With regards to infant Baptism, the Scriptures are silent, other than to say that entire households were Baptized at the same time. It neither endorses nor condemns paedo-Baptism explicitly. We do know, however, that under the Old Covenant, male children entered the Covenant at 8 days of age through their circumcision. (Adult males were circumcised when the converted, as well.) Circumcision was a sign of the Old Covenant, and it was applied to children. Since Baptism is a sign of the new Covenant, it is not unreasonable to believe that children can be baptized.

"..but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 19:14)

"have you read the Catechism of The Church?

Full Court: "Yes. Often. It's online. It's searchable. Any idiot can read it. My question is why you would believe such man made tripe over the Holy Bible.";

Full Court,

It's not a question of believing the Catechism of the Catholic Church over the Holy Bible, the two are not in opposition. The Bible is the Inspired Word of God, which God gave to us through His Church. The Catechism is an instruction from the Church on living the Christian Life. It is structured as an explanation of the Lord's Prayer, the Ten Commandments, and the Nicean-Constantnople Creed.

The Catechism complements the Bible, it does not supplant it.

"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" - than the name of JESUS.
I. THE LIFE OF MAN - TO KNOW AND LOVE GOD

1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

2 So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." Strengthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it."

3 Those who with God's help have welcomed Christ's call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ's faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer.

--The first three Paragraphs of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

God says you can know you are saved, He can give you that peace.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

OK. Let's take a look at this verse. You seem to use this as proof that you are "saved" now and forever. That this verse was written so that all who may read it will have assurance of salvation.

But that isn't what it says. John says he wrote "these things" so that we may know. Wouldn't it be wise to look at what else he wrote in his letter, rather than just taking this one verse out of context?

All following verses from 1 John.

1 john 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

So we must not merely say (or profess) faith, we must avoid walking in darkness (that is, actively living sinful lives), or else our profession is a lie. Clearly there is more to it than just reading one verse and therefore presuming salvation.

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

He implores us here again to avoid sin. This is one of the things written, we should pay it heed. No mere vocalization of a faith is enough to assure us forever of salvation.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We must abide the commandments (love God and love one another) in order to truly be in him. This is an ongoing thing, not one day deciding we want to be "saved."

Note also he that says he abides in God "ought himself also to walk." Had salvation been a given, John would have said that such a person will automatically, as a matter of course, walk as Jesus walked. Not that they "ought" to , lest their profession of faith be a lie.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Abide in him. John writes as if we have a choice to abide or not, to walk in the darkness or not. He implores us over and over to stay the course. Very odd for a man who (presumably) wrote 5:13 so we could easily know we were saved forever.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

In order to be "born of him" one must "doeth righteousness." Not just "accept Jesus" one day.

3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Because we keep his commandments and do pleasing things. Not because of a profession of faith.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

So much for salvation by "faith alone." We must believe on His Name and love one another.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Again, keeping his commandments is linked to dwelling in him.

4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Again, if we love one another, God dwells in us.

So, still wish to use 5:13 as some sort of proof text of easy knowledge of eternal salvation?

"Some people are in a state of grace today who may die out of grace."

How does your church determine this?

God judges us at death. Don't you know this?

Are there specific works that must be done on an ongoing basis to keep your grace? If you need to do certain things to keep your grace aren't you saying that the indwelling HOLY SPIRIT comes and goes based on what you do.

Please see my exposition on 1 John directly above. Abide in His commandments and love one another.

I know in your prior post you said,"avoid sin, do good things, partake of the sacraments." What I'm asking is what particular sacraments work to keep the HOLY SPIRIT in you and thus keep you in a state of grace?

There are 7 sacraments. Three can only be conferred one time: baptism, confirmation and holy orders.

One is Marriage, which is for life, though it can be re-enterd if a spouse dies.

One is for the sick and dying.

This leaves two sacraments which can be enjoyed frequently. When your repent from your own sinful choices and return to walking the path of righteousness, Confession gives you absolution of your sins. As Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive men's sins in His name, our priest's carry that same mission on today.

And Communion is spiritual food that strengthens us and empowers us to continue obeying His commandments and loving one another.

commit a mortal sin (please define this)

Baltimore Catechism:

66. What is mortal sin?
Mortal sin is a grievous offense against the law of God.
Flee from sins as from the face of a serpent; for if thou comest near them, they will take hold of thee. (Ecclesiasticus 21:2)

67. Why is this sin called mortal?
This sin is called mortal, or deadly, because it deprives the sinner of sanctifying grace, the supernatural life of the soul.
Before man is life and death, good and evil; that which he shall choose shall be given him. (Ecclesiasticus 15:18)

68. Besides depriving the sinner of sanctifying grace, what else does mortal sin do to the soul?
Besides depriving the sinner of sanctifying grace, mortal sin makes the soul an enemy of God, takes away the merit of all its good actions, deprives it of the right to everlasting happiness in heaven, and makes it deserving of everlasting punishment in hell.
For the wages of sin is death; but the grace of God, life everlasting in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

69. What three things are necessary to make a sin mortal?
To make a sin mortal these three things are needed:
first, the thought, desire, word, action, or omission must be seriously wrong or considered seriously wrong;
second, the sinner, must be mindful of the serious wrong;
third, the sinner must fully consent to it.

70. What is venial sin?
Venial sin is a less serious offense against the law of God, which does not deprive the soul of sanctifying grace, and which can be pardoned even without sacramental confession.
Be ye therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 6:48)

Good to see you back in action, Gscc.

"Are you saying a man can slip through the cracks. Live a righteous life, commit a mortal sin (please define this), not be able to get to a priest, and then go to hell? Not being confrontational - just curious."

I think it's fine to be confrontational with Soothing Dave, it doesn't seem to bother him in the least. ;-)

I think the underlying principle is summarized well in Ezekiel.

"But if a wicked man turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness which he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die. "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die for it; for the iniquity which he has committed he shall die. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is lawful and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord GOD; so turn, and live." (Ezekiel 18: 21-32)

God is for us, and He desires all men to be saved. A righteous man can be condemned, however, if he turns away from God to wickedness.

The Sacrament of Reconciliation is a wonderful Sacrament. For one, it makes us examine our lives and ask how we might do better, and be honest about our repeated failings. It's one thing to tell yourself that you regret all your sins, it's an entirely another to confess your sins to God in the presenceof another human being in explicit detail. It teaches us to go easier on others with failings, and it forces us to take a good look in the mirror. It's also a good opportunity to discuss the Christian Life where the rubber meets the road--daily life-- with an experienced Spiritual advisor-namely the minister. More than anything, however, the Sacrament of Reconcilliation is a time of turning to God and healing.

Scripture tells us to confess our sins to one another:

"Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." (James 5:16)

Does your community practice this? This certainly isn't limited to Catholics and Orthodox, as I think I've seen an Evangelical Christian on this forum mention that their community had a practice of confessioning sins to one another.

By the way, you have freepmail. ;-)

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