Posted on 02/15/2006 6:22:47 AM PST by NYer
What happens to Protestants when they back slide? What happens to people who are "born again" and quit?
There's also purgatory. While not mentioned by name, it is similar to the OT Sheol. The threshing floor, the refiners fire that Paul talks about.
Ephesians and James both talk about the fact that we are made for works because of God, that is obedience.
The same can be said of a lot of non-Catholic Christians.
there's a lot of comments here and don't have time to read them all.
God hates liars. I'd call that at odds with evolution and evolutionist.
Where is the current Pope on evolution?
Is he in agreement with God?
Or not?
That wasn't my post.
But the point remains that Either Mary has sex with Joseph or she sinned by with holding sex from Joseph.
Take your pick.
True. But isn't the controversy surrounding the word "until" simply one of whether or not the word inherently implies a change of state after an event? If that is so, then usages of the word contradicting that assumption should be sufficient to prove the point, regardless of whether they form an "identity" with the circumstances in the "until passage" at issue. Mere analogy, rather than identity, should suffice.
That's crazy.
Paul started preaching on his own. He didn't wait years.
You are brainwashed to think that you couldn't read and understand the Bible on your own when you very well could if you were born again.
When Noah built the Ark and weathered the flood he did not take credit for saving mankind. When Moses led the Jews out of Egypt he did not take credit for delivering them to the Promised Land. They were tools in the Lord's hands. So why is it that the RC Church takes credit for canonizing the Scriptures?
1 Corinthians 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
make me realise that many of those who don't belong to The Church have no idea what the Church is about and seem to rely on Jack Chick tracts or medieval concepts or the following centuries of propaganda for what they think The Church is about.
Sadly, they're wrong and they move away from The Church. This is pretty akin to believing in such outright lies as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
No. The entire canon of the Bible (OT & NT) was ratified by four separate Catholic councils and their respective papal concurences between 382 and 419. Trent dogmatically declared the canon in the 16th Century because Protestantism had already moved to alter the OT canon and was still toying with the idea of altering the NT canon as well. It decalred the canon dogmatically to act as a bulwark against the spirit of the age in which Trent existed.
If you look at the history of ecumenical councils, you will find that such is usually the case - dogmatic assertions about such-and-such are not made until there is a controversy anout such-and-such, and the correct teaching must be publicly promulgated. Case in point: the Trinity was defined at Nicaea in 325 NOT because it was all of a sudden dreamed-up then, but because there was enough controversy denying what was *already* taught in the Catholic Church that formal definition of the Trinity was needed to set everyone straight.
2 Peter 2:20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (they were saved by trusting Christ and the Cross), they are again entangled therein, and overcome (proclaims the fact that if the Believer ceases to place his Faith and trust in what Jesus did at the Cross, that entanglement in the pollutions of the world will once again become a fact; it cannot be otherwise), the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of Righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the Holy Commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true Proverb [Proverb 26:11], The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (this completely refutes the Unscriptural Doctrine of Unconditional Security, and gives the reason...a departure from Christ and the Cross.)
Jesus Speaks...
Luke 11:23 He who is not with Me is against Me (presents the fact that there is no neutrality with Christ): and he who gathers not with Me scatters (everything is either of the Devil or of Christ, there is no middle ground)
Luke 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man (concerns the efforts of man, whatever they may be, to save himself other than by Christ and Him Crucified), he walks through dry places (waterless, out of the body), seeking rest (concerns the "unclean spirit" which has gone out); and finding none, he says, I will return unto my house whence I came out (unless Christ affects the work, whatever it might be, it is not truly affected)
Luke 11:25 And when he (the evil spirit) comes, he finds it swept and garnished (means it was filled with that other than Christ)
Luke 11:26 Then goes he, (the evil spirit), and takes to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself (concerns the reoccupation by demon spirits) and they enter in, and dwell there (proving that most of the world is controlled by demon spirits): and the last state of that man is worse that the first (this was the state of Israel after they had rejected Christ, which ultimately led to their total destruction)
Uh...because it did?
Whether Noah and Moses took credit for what they did or not, they DID what they DID, no? Whether the Church takes self-conscious credit for what it did regarding the canon of Scripture, its actions in this matter are of historical record. We Catholics, when defending the Catholic nature of the canon of Scripture here on FR and elsewhere, have every right to point out verifiable facts concerning our Church's involvement. I do not think that the Church, per se, trumpets its canonization of Scripture every waking moment, as you imply. Rather, individual members of the Catholic Church on this forum are oftern obliged to bring the matter up when people palpably ignorant of easily attainable and verifiable history attempt to retroactively rewrite that history (or simply ignore it) to further a disingenuous agenda.
FC: God hates liars. I'd call that at odds with evolution and evolutionist.
Evolution as defined is not anti-religious. It, like all sciences seeks to help man understand God's creation. When taken to extremes (like saying life evolved of it's own), then it becomes wrong. Physics and Chemistry aren't against the Bible, they only make us learn more about the awesomeness of God. I see that you don't really know about or have read anything about evolution, but are just spouting the Media's incorrect version.
Where is the current Pope on evolution?
The Popes have and always will state that God created everything.
How God created it to the minute detail is something else.
Is Genesis a way of simple ancient man trying to understand the enormity of God? Would a man in 2000 B.C. (like Abraham) understand when you spoke about germs, about bacteria and viruses? Would he understand the concept of millenia? I doubt it. God, in His wisdom explained things in simple ways to man: "I (God) created the sun, the moon, the earth and everything on it" and in a nutshell that IS what he did. Was man created from Dust (from earth, from the elements on earth)? YES. What were the details involved in this fantastic creation? I dunno, God may explain it to you and me, but we aren't smart enough to understand. Even less sophisticated were people in 2000 B.C. You see Genesis says that God put up two lights -- the Sun and the Moon. Try explaining to a 5 year old. Which is more easier for the 5 year old to understand -- that there is a gigantic ball of gas and energy that's undergoing nuclear fission and fusion (oh, you'd have to explain those two terms as well -- atoms splitting, electrons being exchanged, neutrons separating etc, then why the energy comes from bosons to quarks etc. then the string theory) and this gigantic ball is millions of miles away from us and sends light and heat, while the Moon is just a big rock that reflects the Sun's light. Or would it be simpler to just say the simplest that these two give light to the earth.
BOTH the long and the Short tell you that God created these two lights. It's only when explaining it to the audience that we get stumped. We will never understand the fullness of God's work, we can only seek to learn more about His works.
Is he in agreement with God?
Yes.
"There's also purgatory. While not mentioned by name, it is similar to the OT Sheol. The threshing floor, the refiners fire that Paul talks about.
Ephesians and James both talk about the fact that we are made for works because of God, that is obedience."
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Yours is such a "works" based faith. You can be saved, but you can lose that salvation if you don't do the "works" that your church dictates and you still go to purgatory to work off sin after you die.
My readings of SCRIPTURE differ in that once the HOLY SPIRIT dwells in you the HOLY SPIRIT will not abandon you. The works you do after your saved are from a desire to please our LORD JESUS CHRIST, not because they buy you anything.
IMHO, our LORD JESUS CHRIST did not come to sacrifice himself for us to then make it so complicated that a sinner couldn't have the blessed assurance of KNOWING that they are one of the elect and are held in his hand no matter what. Your "works" based salvation leaves you NEVER KNOWING for sure if you are saved or not. Due to this I pray for you that you may come to know the PEACE of being with the LORD ALWAYS, no matter what mistakes you make.
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